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Post Posted: March 28th 2005 2:41 pm
 
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Remember when Dark Horse Comics editor Randy Stradley commented that an "important revelation" in the ROTS graphic novel no longer appears in the film?

Well, recently he also posted this:

Quote:
Actually, having seen the article (which is barely a quarter of a page), there aren't many spoilers. If you watched the trailer, you probably know most of them. And one of the points they mention isn't even in thee movie anymore -- which will confuse the hell out of people who read the article and then go to the film expecting to see it!


He is refering to this week's Entertainment Weekly, which has a Star Wars cover (actually, six of them) and includes a ROTS spoilers sidebar (which they admit they took from the graphic novel). So what did EW reveal? Let's take a look:

Quote:
1. Count Dooku falls prey to Lucas' hand-chopping fixation.

2. Chewbacca not only makes an appearance but performs a crucial service to the Jedi.

3. Mace Windu meets his end in a battle with Anakin and the Emperor.

4. We see the first Jedi Master to communicate from beyond: Qui-Gon Jinn sends messages to Yoda.

5. Anakin seals his shift to the dark side by leading a death squad into the Jedi Temple


My money is on the Qui-Gon scenes having been cut from the movie.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 3:14 pm
 
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Theres no way that Qui Gon sending messages is cut, because we know from everything posted here that he talks to Yoda after the massacre takes place. Yoda becomes his apprentice, and then tells Ob1 at the end about the ghost trick too... that much we know for sure is in the movie...

Id have to say the Chewbacca :chewbacca: thing probably gets cut. Hes in the movie, but he'd have to play a smaller role. Doesn't do anything too terribly great in the battle, so he doesn't have an outstanding service to the Jedi.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 3:18 pm
 

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Chewbacca used to be the one to save Yoda...and send him off to the escape pod. Perhaps he just is there with Yoda at the pod now...who knows...


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 3:25 pm
 

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It's possible that it's just a semantics mix up right there. Maybe they intended for you to actually see Qui-Gon originally. I mean we've HEARD dead people speak in SW before, what with Qui-Gon in AoTC, so when they say "We see the first Jedi Master to communicate from beyond" they do actually imply something original has happened, the force ghost. Maybe the seeing is cut and the hearing is left alone? I sure hope so.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 3:30 pm
 
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I agree with Ferr..... and in my opinion it would be a terrible mistake to cut this sequence from the film, as it has been reported in spoilers it would make a FANTASTIC scene!


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 3:38 pm
 

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im going with the chewie one on this.

lucas has said all along that the prequels will reveal the secrets of the disappearing act... surely he wouldnt cut it now.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 3:47 pm
 
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My money is on the Qui-Gon scenes being cut.
Honestly I don't really mind these scenes being gone, I haven't been a huge fan of what I've heard about these scenes. We've survived for almost 30 years without an explanation of the force ghost thing, so why does everyone think we need one now all of the sudden?
Also, I haven't understood how Anakin's ghost would fit into all of this. Young or old (DVD or not DVD), when on earth would Anakin have been through the "training" to become a ghost at the end of ROTJ? Sure, the Qui-Gon explanation is cool for Yoda and Obi-Wan, but Anakin seems to be a pretty big plot hole in this. Sith aren't supposed to be able learn the power of immortality according to the Qui-Gon scenes, but somehow when Anakin comes back to the light for like 10 mins before he dies, that's enough time for him to suddenly learn the ghost power? Doesn't make sense to me.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 3:55 pm
 

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Stryke wrote:
Despite the fact that I think it is a mistake my money is on the Qui-Gon scenes being cut.
Honestly I don't really mind these scenes being gone, I haven't been a huge fan of what I've heard about these scenes. We've survived for almost 30 years without an explanation of the force ghost thing, so why does everyone think we need one now all of the sudden?
Also, I haven't understood how Anakin's ghost would fit into all of this. Young or old (DVD or not DVD), when on earth would Anakin have been through the "training" to become a ghost at the end of ROTJ? Sure, the Qui-Gon explanation is cool for Yoda and Obi-Wan, but Anakin seems to be a pretty big plot hole in this. Sith aren't supposed to be able learn the power of immortality according to the Qui-Gon scenes, but somehow when Anakin comes back to the light for like 10 mins before he dies, that's enough time for him to suddenly learn the ghost power? Doesn't make sense to me.


I believe the way Lucas designed the explanation was for it to not have a requirement for training. A Jedi could come to this by merely achieving whatever it is that needs to be achieved to remain "alive" after death. Anakin was just lucky in this department, I guess.

(But then there are endless questions, such as, thanks to Lucas' latest edit, why is it Young Anakin as a ghost and not the older? And this type of thing can only be answered by Lucas himself without it being crappy internet speculation.)


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 4:00 pm
 

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Stryke wrote:
Doesn't make sense to me.


And that's exactly why you need Qui-Gon to clear that up for you. I don't think the Qui-Gon thing will be cut, but I always imagined this scene being vocal only, not any visual appearence by Liam Neeson himself. He, after all, did not fade away like the rest of the bunch did.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 4:03 pm
 

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Zéyann wrote:
Stryke wrote:
Doesn't make sense to me.


And that's exactly why you need Qui-Gon to clear that up for you. I don't think the Qui-Gon thing will be cut, but I always imagined this scene being vocal only, not any visual appearence by Liam Neeson himself. He, after all, did not fade away like the rest of the bunch did.


Neither did Vader. ..does the Anakin force ghost have the scar on his face on the DVD?


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 4:11 pm
 

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ferr wrote:
does the Anakin force ghost have the scar on his face on the DVD?


just checked it to be sure.. and he didn't :o

oh well, and yeah and yur right btw, vader didn't fade away either... guess we'll just have to wait and see.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 4:22 pm
 
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I think the reason Anakin comes back as a ghost is because he was saved by love... Thats what Qui Gon tells yoda the key is for eternal life. Its love, thats why the Sith cannot achieve it.
Vader is saved by the love of Luke, and in turn loves his son to his last breath, so in a way, he does in fact luck out, because there is no way that he finds out about it in RotS...

I think the only reason that he comes back as a Anakin from Rots and not from Return of the Jedi is that the old man who used to come back, before these latest DVD's, couldn't be him... Anakin was bad and essentially bodyless at the end of this movie (RotS), so him as a old man with hair and all his limbs never really existed. Lucas had to clear that up, and put Hayden in there. Plus it adds to the continuity.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 5:14 pm
 

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"Maybe the seeing is cut and the hearing is left alone?"

Yes, I'd say either this or maybe Chewbacca's farewell to Yoda standing by the escape pod. Once Bail finds the pod leaving the planet, the audience would know what happened, so the goodbye scene can be cut.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 5:29 pm
 
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Yes, I agree with that one Fantana. When Anakin turns to the darkside, the good Jedi that he was no longer exists. So its like he basically dies in the eyes of the light side of the force, so when he is redeemed in ROTJ his ghost is that of when he was last part of light side. Ben & Yoda never turned so they appear as they looked when they died.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:14 pm
 

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Seeing how Lucas went out of his way to establish that the Hayden version of Anakin was the Blue Glowie, it would be a huge waste of time and money to film the scene which more or less explains it, only to then cut it out. That and it would leave a lot of folks confused about the Blue Glowie thing and word getting out of it being cut from the film would only make things worse. I doubt Lucas is fool enough to do that, but we'll have to wait and see I guess.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:21 pm
 
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Qui-Gon is cut.

EDIT: To elaborate... what I was told is that Lucas tried to get Liam Neeson to record some dialogue but the request was declined. Lucas then tried out voice actors who imitated Qui-Gon for the LucasArts games, but it was decided that it just wasn't working. As a result, this part of the story was trimmed and eventually almost completely thrown out, other than what Yoda reveals to Obi-Wan, that we are left assuming he just figuring out through meditation.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:21 pm
 
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According to the offical Site one those ask the Jedi Council or something like that vader did fade away.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:28 pm
 
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Lord Seafood wrote:
Qui-Gon is cut.

EDIT: To elaborate... what I was told is that Lucas tried to get Liam Neeson to record some dialogue but the request was declined. Lucas then tried out voice actors who imitated Qui-Gon for the LucasArts games, but it was decided that it just wasn't working. As a result, this part of the story was trimmed and eventually almost completely thrown out, other than what Yoda reveals to Obi-Wan, that we are left assuming he just figuring out through meditation.


That's more or less what I figured. The guy who voiced Qui-Gon in Episode 21 of Clone Wars was pretty damn good, though. They should give him a chance, though it's probably too late.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:40 pm
 
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Lucas' request was denied? I know Neeson is a good actor but I dont believe that if GL was calling to ask him about doing this that he had to make some sort of formal request. Plus wouldnt Mcallum be the one making the call to Neeson? Just like we saw him do the casting approval call for Ewan in TPM Docu. I dont care which actor it is or how famous they are, when GL calls to speak to you I am more than willing to bet that any actor is taking that call. Not some request denied bullshit.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:41 pm
 
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Lord Sluggo wrote:
Lucas' request was denied? I know Neeson is a good actor but I dont believe that if GL was calling to ask him about doing this that he had to make some sort of formal request. Plus wouldnt Mcallum be the one making the call to Neeson? Just like we saw him do the casting approval call for Ewan in TPM Docu. I dont care which actor it is or how famous they are, when GL calls to speak to you I am more than willing to bet that any actor is taking that call. Not some request denied bullshit.


LucasFILM's request to Neeson's AGENT. :)


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:48 pm
 

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The question is how the hell do you get around this?

He sets it up beautifully in Attack of the Clones and the big pay off is going to be in this film, then this happens.

How does he make it work?

I only see it working if Yoda states that he's been in constant contact with Qui-Gon over the years and that now he understands after the tragedy that's just taking place and then he gives Obi-Wan the info....

...this sort of sucks if it's true....because it's quite brillant in the novel.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:51 pm
 
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But dont you think that maybe after the first try by Lucasfilm that Rick or George himself might pick up the phone & make the call? When one channel doesnt work, you try a different one. Maybe his agent did say no in the begining. After that George & Liam could have seen each other at the Vanity Fair photo shoot or at the Oscars, maybe he asked him personally then when his agent was not present.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:56 pm
 
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MasterWiYa wrote:
Who is your source? I'm not doubting you I just find it somewhat suprising, that's all.


I live in Sydney - you'll have to put 2+2. It's a small industry, it's not that hard to hear stuff as "big" as this.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:58 pm
 

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Do you know anything else about the story?


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 6:59 pm
 
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Well in the end its all just speculation anyway.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 7:08 pm
 

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I hope they cut the Sidious-Windu fight. It sounds boring.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 7:09 pm
 

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I wonder if they thought about including Qui-Gon's ghost as early as TPM, because either in TPM novel or the kids audiobook (I have both, so it had to be one or the other) Yoda tells Obi-Wan he has a new padawan for him and says something like, "Already know him you do. Master Qui-Gon Jinn," or something to that effect.

That obviously wasn't in the movie. I hope the same isn't true this time around.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 7:10 pm
 

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That would be pretty ridiculous for Neeson to totally mess up a person's film over some silly ego-related reason. If this is indeed true, I'll make it a point to not see any of his future films. :|


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 7:19 pm
 

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I seriously doubt the Qui-Gon spirit scene will be cut, since it's such a pivotal scene.

And I'm not just saying this because of my name. :mrgreen:


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 7:26 pm
 

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Not only that, but there was that whole thing where Neeson was in the general vicinity of where Lucas was doing reshoots, and when pressed on the subject, he said he couldn't tell because of "jedi code of honor" or somesuch. Then to add to the confusion, McCallum replies with a coy kind of "oh Neeson? Hahaha just joking around, that sneaky old bastard. Hahaha." or whatever. So now it's like...what the hell? Can we get a real answer?


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 7:40 pm
 

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It was reported in USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/200 ... htm?csp=34

Quote:
Star Wars alums Neeson and Jackson both offered hints that George Lucas has shot a top-secret cameo of Neeson as Qui-Gon Jinn's ghost, à la Alec Guinness, for May's Episode III: Revenge of the Sith. "I can't speak about it," Neeson joked. "Jedi code of ethics."


I call bullshit on Lord Seafood.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 7:48 pm
 

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I remember that article. If he jokes around like that and doesn't do the movie, he can burn in hell. :mad:


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 7:56 pm
 
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Well, you've gotta know that DOoko still loses his hands (and head) based on all the pics weve seen from that fight scene...

As far as the qui gon stuff goes, I wonder if Lucas would, in the end, let someone voice over an impersonation of Neeson? I know it was addressed earlier that he tried that, but to keep the scene in, w/o Neeson, you would have to do that. That scene is totally badass, espicially with:
"My failure, this was. Failed the Jedi, I did." Yoda, Revenge of the Sith. That line could steal the scene...

And Sidious vs. Mace BORING??? :o WTF??? Yeah, we get to see the baddest Sith fight, which is something weve been waiting for for 30 years, and we get to see Anakins first real betrayal of the light side (sandpeople slaughter aside) and get to see Mace fight, after hearing how bad he was... Yeah, that sounds real boring to me... ;)


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 8:18 pm
 

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maybe it is a shorter version of the mace fight or the purging of the temple. both scenes are the ones that can shorten due to the nature of the graphic scenes in the movie, plus both scenes depict the progression to the dark side and we have being getting this since aotc and could be overkill. yes it would be cool to see limbs flying around and every single jedi move we can. remember that at heart these movies are for kids with a universal message about attachments and letting go. imagine that you saw a new hope then esb but couldnt see rotj until you were old enough. that would put a damper in your storytelling. wouldn't it?


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 8:50 pm
 
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PSJW, to say you're grasping at straws would be a drastic understatement.

Besides, Pablo said NONE of the duels had been shortened.

We know DOoku's hand loss isn't cut from the movie. That wouldn't make any sense.

If they cut Chewie they'd have to cut ALL of Kashyyyk, which seems unlikely. Because no matter what, if Kashyyyk's in, so will Chewie helping Yoda leave it.

We know they aren't cutting Anakin leading the troops.

At the same time I find it hard to believe Liam Neeson refused to do the job.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 8:51 pm
 

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He says it's a point touched on in the trailer, something fans will be expecting.
I have a BAAAAAAD feeling it might be the massacre, we might only see the start of it, and then a tiny bit during the holorecording.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 8:53 pm
 
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PTGrievous wrote:
He says it's a point touched on in the trailer, something fans will be expecting.
I have a BAAAAAAD feeling it might be the massacre, we might only see the start of it, and then a tiny bit during the holorecording.


Yes, that's what I think they mean, but I don't believe Vader laying waste to the Temple was ever meant to be seen outside of hologram, was it?

It's never implied to be in the graphic novel or even the novelization.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 9:06 pm
 

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actually it says if you watched the trailer you probably know many of the spoilers. but it's something that you might expect from reading the article.

also eventhough it has been said that no duels are to be reduced, didn't they reduced the count dooku one in aotc? the part were dooku was suppousedly fighting with two sabers?


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 9:11 pm
 

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It now seems plausible to me that the fifth spoiler may be "toned down." We shall definitely see Anakin leading the troops up to and into the Jedi Temple, but the altercations with Cin Drallig and the other Jedi may only be viewed on the holorecording.

I agree with a previous poster who said that if they cut Chewbacca, the entire four-minute Kashyyyk sequence would need to be removed, as only one minute is battle footage, the remaining three involve Yoda, Chewbacca, and Tarfful.

The Qui-Gon scenes are essentially the explanation Lucas has owed fans for years; it would be illogical to excise them now.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 9:11 pm
 
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The Chewie scene is the only one that could be cut without leaving gaping plot holes, either in the film or in the saga as a whole. I hope they at least leave in the Kashyyyk battle scenes.

It wouldn't be that hard to fake/restructure a brief Qui-Gon appearance (a la the scream in AOTC), so even if Neeson didn't do *anything* for ROTS they could still *imply* his presence (at least enough to have Yoda's "failed" line followed by a brief off-camera reply and a cutaway, if nothing else).

I think it's more likely that, if something's going to be cut at this point in the process, it will be due to pacing issues.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 9:19 pm
 
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pjsw wrote:
also eventhough it has been said that no duels are to be reduced, didn't they reduced the count dooku one in aotc? the part were dooku was suppousedly fighting with two sabers?


Yeah, so? Pabs recently said none of the ROTS duels were cut down, infact, the Mace duel was LENGTHENED due to pickups.

***

The Yoda-Qui-Gon moment was implied in the trailer. They showed the shot of Yoda opening his eyes after finishing his talk with the Jedi Master.

But wouldn't this have been confirmed long ago if it was cut? I mean, we knew Dagobah was cut right away, why not this until now?


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 9:20 pm
 
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We'll find out in due time


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 9:22 pm
 
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Wrath Mania wrote:
I don't believe Vader laying waste to the Temple was ever meant to be seen outside of hologram, was it?

It's never implied to be in the graphic novel or even the novelization.


No, as far as I can tell, there was never any plan to actually show the temple massacre in real-time, merely the aftermath and holorecordings. I can't imagine anyone would be "confused" by this. There is no way they can "cut" the massacre as an occurrence from the film without completely derailing the plot. I don't think this is what's being alluded to (or, at least, I certainly *hope* not)


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I seriously don't remember Chewbacca in the audio novel at all. Sure it was 12 hours long and perhaps he is in there and I blinked and missed it but I sure don't remember hearing it. Yoda appearred a couple of times via hologram from Kashyyyk but that was it I think.

The graphic novel only shows him helping Yoda escape Order 66.

But Lucas has known that Qui-Gon was going to have some part in RotS for some time:

Quote:
STARLOG: And isn’t that Qui-Gon Jinn’s [Liam Neeson] voice we hear during Anakin’s attack on the Tusken Raiders who killed Shmi Skywalker [Pernilla August]?

LUCAS: That’s a fan thing, isn’t it? It’s actually more than that. It’s a plot point. All I can really say is that you’ll find out [more] in the next film. If you thought really hard, you would probably be able to figure it out, but it really is a set-up for the next film. It’s connected with the whole ability to be brought into and become a part of the Force, but still be able to retain YOUR ability – which, up to this point, Anakin couldn’t do. We talked to Liam about [recording new dialogue], and we went back and forth [about it]. This [dialogue] is something we already had [from Menace]. Next time will be a little more complicated.


The only part that would have me nervous is how it 'went back and forth' with Liam (i take that to mean negotiations), and next time would be 'more complicated' (ie more dialouge).


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 11:39 pm
 
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Dennis Lawson, Wedge Antilles in the OT (and Ewan's uncle) turned down a role (the one eventually filled by Jeremy Bulloch, I believe) in ROTS, so it's certainly not unheard of.


Post Posted: March 29th 2005 12:12 am
 
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Seeing as how the Yoda / Chewie scene doesn't qualify as any kind of "important revelation" it HAS to be the Qui Gon / Yoda scene. Doesn't it? Not a big deal. This scene would be as extraneous as the midichlorians were and it's likely they would disrupt the flow of the movie's conclusion.

From the first time I'd heard of this explanation it always seemed a bit "tacked on." A big narrative, "Oh, and by the way..." Sure, Qui Gon's vocal cameo in AOTC is now a lone bookend. But it was kind of half-hearted... And I LIKE Yoda being the greatest Jedi Master. This "Now I'm your student" stuff sits awkwardly on the page and most likely it would sit even more awkwardly on the screen. It's fine as EU info for EU SW fans and I'm fine w/ it being only in the novelization...

Another "back to the significance of Qui Gon" moment would be odd and kind of Scooby Doo summarizing. I'd get the creepy feeling Lucas was kissing Neeson's butt in retro, especially with that "Liam, the shades..." moment in AOTC. Cringe.

The BIG deal is: What's the point of the movie? The Sith are seeking out everlasting life. The Jedi FIND everlasting life. But ... what? By ACCIDENT? By some weird fluke? Is the whole point of the Qui Gon scene a humbling of Yoda's character and by extension the arrogant Jedi order, an implication that there's more to learn within the Force...? All of this is implied for the really deep thinkers when you see Obi Wan's force-ghost.

And while we're on the subject of the force ghost thing, and Anakin's bridging the gap with it ... I still don't get why Anakin is smiling after his force ghost resurrection when he's forever saddled with the memories of the wife, younglings, planets and friends he's slaughtered. The most merciful and fair thing would be to send this guilt-wracked murderer into the void. One dead Sidious doesn't seem proportionate to the lives of billions. Ah well. Lucas has a weird sense of justice and the more "explanatory" moments that are included kill the magic and underline the tragic.


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It has to be the Chewbacca stuff..If they cut the Neeson scene there would be a full scale riot in the movie theater


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My guess is that its either a cut down version of the Chewbacca scene.. because it's not critical that we know that Chewbacca helps Yoda.. it adds nothing to the plot. Chewbacca helping Yoda into an escape pod is a throwaway scene...maybe it got thrown away.

OR

Cut down version of Anakin storming the Jedi temple.. to get the PG or PG 13 rating.

Point being...

If Liam Neeson couldnt do the dialogue..you are essentially dealing with ADR work.. anyone can do the dialogue, adjust and flange the hell out of it and get the feeling for Qui Gonn's voice.. if it serves the story and moves the story forward.. not being able to get an actor wouldn't really make a difference.. especially if this is just VO work.

This is the only scene that really seems critical to the plot.

OR LOOK AT IT THIS WAY:

The other side of this coin is Dark Horse is covering their ass because the graphic novel leaked to EW before Apr 2nd..and this is misinformation from the VP of marketing. Because honestly.. if you are a VP of marketing.. and your team fucks up THAT bad.. do you get on a message board and say "OH by the way.. not only did we leak the graphic novel early.. but one of the scenes that is in the graphic novel is no longer in the movie"

The whole things smells a little bull-shitty to me.


Post Posted: March 29th 2005 12:48 am
 

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"you are essentially dealing with ADR work.."

Yeah. I can't see Lucas being held back because of the absence of an actor. He's spent his whole career looking for technological ways around such obstructions. Surely they could do a digital faint ghostly image of Qui-Gon in the window, or something like that. Or just the voice.


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I don't know what they are cutting, but I hope they aren't cutting the Mace/Sidious duel. I'm looking forward to that more than almost any other scene. If it must be one of these, I hope its the attack on the temple, because we don't really need to see that so much as know the aftermath.


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