I was about to post this in the politics thread based on the following statement, but seeing I didn't want to drive the thread off its rails yet still wanted to say this, I'll make a new thread. Projbalance, I don't meant to alienate you, or take what you said out of context, but this is what my response was to one particular statement. Please don't take offense and feel free to offer a rebuttal.



You're the one that brought up abortion, so I'll just ask you, is that supposed to be a "rational" argument that's FOR abortion as opposed to the "irrational" arguments against it? Funny that you even called them "children". I thought you're not human until you're born? Or is it 6 months after conception? What does it matter, I suppose having a vagina and concequently bearing a child inside you gives you the moral right to decide what is and is not murder.

And because someone will inevitably link it anyway: http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=regressive

Thanks for putting this in another thread "Face". Let me clear up my statement. I should have put children in quotes, as I was using the term to communicate using a phrase that would be understandable by people who are so called pro life. It was meant to put the whole statement on a level where I could communicate the idea directly to them. The end part of the post, the one you quoted, was not meant in the context of the abortion discussion, but rather a sumation of the overall idea I was trying to express. I can not have an opinion on abortion as a method of right or wrong simply because, as a man, I have no real place in the discussion. What I stand against is not a life or death issue, but an issue of choice. I don't think any person or group of persons has any right to step in and tell another person what they can or can not do with their own bodies. You can offer your opinion or suggestions, but no one has the right to legislate what someone can do. I abhore suicide, for example. I think suicide is the selfish, cowardly way out and that we all lose something when someone takes their own life. Do I think we should outlaw suicide? No. Why? Because despite my personal belief I don't have to right to impose that beleif on another person. The Japanese culture believes that a ritualistic suicide can redeem the honor of a warrior who has lost his in some way. Even though I disagree, who am I to say an entire peoples belief system is wrong.

I think a popular argument used against so called pro-choicers like myself is that we are not anti-abhortion, then we are obviously pro-abortion. We like the idea of killin' babies. I can only speak for myself, but I don't think that's so. Whether you agree with the action or not, the idea is that we are free to choose. If I want to cut off my left arm, it's not your place to lock me up for wanting to do it.

On the issue of when "life" begins, how do we define life in terms of a human being? PLankton is alive. Amoeba and paramecium are alive. They are certainly not life on the order of a human being, bu they are alive. When a human being is concieved it is nothing more than a masss of cells and genetic information. It has the potential to become a human being, but even that is not 100% certain to occur. A fetus can not support it's own existance outside the mothers body. It takes nutrients from the mother without providing anyting in return (aside from emotional feedback that may or may not be interperated as positive) in terms of the mothers health. It is, in essence, a parsitic relationship, albeit it one with a time limit. Until a certain time after birth when the brain of the child develops to a certain degree, the person is just going through the motions of life with no understanding of the what or why of whats going on, no personality, and no influence over the world around them. It may be cruel to say, but a baby is just a thing, all human beings are.

We place a lot of intrinsic value on our own lives based on our innate desire to achieve some understanding or feel like we have some greater purpose in the universe, but we are just here. One of relegions purposes is to give people a feeling of meaning, that there is a reason for things, and I think this is one reason that relegion is at the basis of all the ant-abhortion arguments. If relegion is to allow for these types of things it is almost like admitting that we have a will to assert outside the will of God, and that runs counter to the basis of relegion as a whole. Relegion is based on the idea that God is in control, and we do what he tells us to and that he creates life and decides when it is time for life to be done. Those are fine beliefs, but they aren't shared by everyone. As long as people hold different thoughts and beliefs, especially in a country where we supposedly encourage and cultivate cultural differences, it is unreasonable for one groups beliefs to be the guiding force of law based on it's own idea of life and humanity. As a collective we can decide whats best for our society(ie. don't murder, dont steal, dont rape, etc...) but what a person does with their own body is still something a decision that exists outside the judgement of the public, and ultimately, to be settled between the person and their god of choice.

It's about choice and belief and who's should prevail. I beleive that, outside of the things that we all agree on as law, that's all something that is personal and should be left up the individual to decide.

I didn't read this threas, but abortion should be legal as a last resort not a form of birth control. yay.

A last resort for what though? I can understand if it was because of a rape, but I can't think of any other circumstances in which it was ok.

The Supreme Court tried to address the rights of the child and the competing interest of the rights of the mother in Roe v. Wade. They lean more toward the mother in the first trimester and more toward the child in the third trimester. The problem is that you have religious, scientific and political definitions of "life". Our laws have always granted more freedom with actions that harm only yourself, while always deterring your ability to harm others. I personally believe abortion should be a last resort. That is why I disagree with partial birth abortion. I also feel it should be increasingly harder to get an abortion as the pregnancy continues. If science could tell me the age of viability of a fetus, I would be for no abortions past that point. If it is a viable life that could live outside the mother, protect its right to live.

I think it should be legal, but I wouldn't want my child to be aborted.

I made the deciscion long ago that if I ever got pregnant right now (at 18) or while I was in college I would abort it. SIMPLY BECAUSE at this point in my life I cannot support a child and provide for it. that is why abortion should be legal.

now don't take my meaning as I'm selfish and I can't afford diapers so I wont go through with it. what I mean is that there are already too make children in this world with young mothers living on welfare who are barely able to buy their kids new clothes. sorry but the american government sucks and I don't trust them for help as far as I can thow them.

third trimester abortions are highly wrong and disgusting and should be banned in all countries. if it takes you that long to decide if you want your baby or not then you're a dumb cunt and you don't deserve the easy way out. ADOPTION PLEASE.

abortion should be legal for every woman in any circumstance

Personally I agree that if you're going to carry a child for a substantial period of time you almost owe it to the baby to go through with it, but again, it's not my call to make and should be left up to the bearer. I think a major part of the issue is the responsibility of the parents to make smart decisions about what they are going to do and how they are going to do it. People just kind of need to understand that if you don't have any precautions currently in place, keep it in your pants. There are a lot of alternative sexual activities that don't include intercourse. Being smart and making good decisions is the second step. The first step is education. I don't believe in abstanance only courses simply because it is not practical to tell kids not to fool around. So as adults and parents, we need to take the reality of things into consideration and get over our own trepidation concerning what our kids know about sex and try to help them understand the process instead of just trying to ignore it. So I think if people knew how to be responsible and make good decisions, we might not need to have this conversation other than as a purely philosphical debate.

What if it was legal to have abortions, but illegal to abort peoples babies? That would make it the mothers responsibililty to find a way of having an abortion without a Doctors help. Bet they wouldn't be so keen on getting rid of "it" then, would they? Think about it. Modern technology has made it easier for people to kill babies. Even if some poor mother is going to struggle to feed and clothe their kids, it shouldn't matter, because you can't put a price on a childs life. Their hardship through childhood could easily lead to full and healthy lives as adults.

Of course I'm speaking tounge-in-cheek there. However what I'll always find interesting is the idea that some can say "I don't agree with third trimester, but first trimester aborations are OK". How can you draw that line? My logic is point of conception. Sperm is sperm. Eggs are eggs. It's only on conception that the potential for human life truly begins. Where and when that child becomes human I have no idea. Maybe what makes us human is that there are people around to care for us. In the case of a fetus, I guess the true line between being classified as human or 'thing' is whether or not the mother cares. That's a huge amount of responsibility.

fuckface don't be such a superfriend and get back to your debate class.

Home Abortion Kit

1 hot bath
1 bottle of Gin
1 knitting needle

word brother.

I don't see an abortion in the first trimester and more or less humane than in the third trimester. Abortion is murder at any stage. However, I believe in protecting the right of the woman at any cost

murder is done malicioiusly. abortion is not. unless you're some kind of sicko.

I guess the fetus is somehow alive after the abortion

well obviously the fetus will no longer be "alive" after the abortion because you terminated the pregnancy. nothing was murdered.

Enough stupid people alive already, we don't need more. In my pov usually these people aren't going to be good parents if they can't even be responsible enough to use proper birth control. (CONDOMS ARE LIKE 1 DOLLAR IN MOST PUBLIC BATHROOMS !!!!)

If you start the debate over when life begins you could even argue that the morning after pill is murder, even spermicide. GET A GRIP PEOPLE. You are being spiteful. You don't really even care at that point, all you want to do is win the arguement.

While we're at it, we should kill bums and handicaps, and people with low IQs.

wrong kid. having an abortion is being responsible and not fucking up the life of a child that is not wanted and will not be well cared for. it's being responsible in not bringing a child into the world out of rape or incest. sometimes it's the right thing.

Don't sign your own death sentence. Bums are alive, they are born, maybe we should help them get back on their feet instead of killing them. Handicap people are perfectly able to participate in society, if they are willing. Superman couldn't walk, didn't stop him. Abortion is humaine because we are killing them before they are self-aware.

Abortion is more responsible than abandoning an unwanted child, more responsible than ignoring an unwanted child, better than that kid robbing me in 15-20 years.

Simple solution:

Use birth control or don't have sex with someone who you don't want to have a child with.

Rape, incest, failed birth control are rarely the reason people have an abortion. Most times, there was a lack of forthought and they want an easy way out.

And I say give it to them, better than having more children with no future.

I have yet to meet anyone, no matter how bad the circumstances to which they were born, who wishes Mom had aborted them.

I do sometimes. My mom ruined hers and my siblings lives because she was forced to stay in a violent marriage simply because she was pregant. If she wasn't she would have left, and that is more desireable to me than my own life.

I agree that education and responsibility are indeed the best and most effective deterrant to abortion. A willingness of most adults to discuss the realities of living in a sexual world with younger people wouldn't hurt either, but most of them need to get over their own ignorances and insecurities first.

I have no issue with abortion.

It should be a globally recognised basic human right, not being forced not to reproduce if you don't want to rates right up there with breathing and eating in the heirarchy of important human physiological functions in my world.

So unwanted pregnancy is a form of punishment for those human beings unprepared fo sex or something?
Sorry chick but that's all kinds of fucked up.

And yes, y'all PM me anytime for a "ban".

I'd prefer to to rely on the marvel of modern technology to back me up, if it's all the same.
I mean, we don't treat brain hemorrhages with a piece of flint and a chunk of blunt wood anymore, right? I don't need to have a child if I don't want to. And don't go pretending abortion is a new fad because the whole deal has been around in so many cultures on so many continents over so many generations it's not even a vaguely valid arguement. It's just that we (ie: the entire human race) have the ability to do so on a mass basis without a risk to the woman getting the procedure done that seems to change matters.

IMO there's absolutley no reason to deny any woman who wants an abortion the right to have one.

My suggestion is fuck like it's Bablylon then abort!

There are those who believe that life here began out there, far across the universe

I don't think it's my place to tell other people what they do or don't have the right to do, so for that reason alone you'll never see me out picketing abortion clinics... but...

Dude, I've enjoyed most everything I've ever seen you post here, but I think what you said is pretty disturbing & sums up some of the problems with our society. Some stupid fuck spills hot coffee on their crotch & instead of taking responsibility for being a stupid fuck, they sue the restaurant. Now we have warnings on our coffee cups "CAUTION: HOT!". Two kids hook up & fuck and a month later when the chick is pregnant, instead of taking responsibility they're like how did that happen?

If people aren't prepared for the consequences of their actions, they shouldn't be having sex. Period. There is no excuse for an abortion under these circumstances. What's more, instead of spending all this time talking about abortion, society would be better served talking about what happens when you have sex (apparently an alarming number of people don't even realize what is supposed to happen?!) as well as talking about alternatives to abortion.

My wife and I know that, although she's on birth control & I use condoms, there's still a chance she'll get pregnant. We really don't want that to happen right now, but if it did - we're prepared for it. If we weren't, we wouldn't be taking a chance. We sure as hell wouldn't go out and kill the fetus because of our lack of judgement.

What's more, even if you disagree with my view of responsibility, there are great alternatives to abortion. I know at least two couples who can't have kids and have signed up to adopt. You know what? They're on a waiting list! A fucking waiting list! And we're sitting here talking about aborting pregnancies?! If a girl gets knocked up & isn't prepared to take care of the baby, or if the guy is a total fuckwad & bails on her, she should go talk to a local crisis center - they can probably put her in touch with an organization to help her through the pregnancy & help her find an adoptive family afterwards. To me, that's a much better alternative than killing a fetus simply to right your own mistake.

I can't beleive this thread is still alive, although I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I think everyone here is making great points, and the most important thing we can do with this issue is debate it and try to gain an understanding of eachother and reach some kind of compromise. I'm going to reiterate some statements from way further up the post in reference to some of the things Rouge-Six said. Two kids hooking up and fucking, the girls gets pregnant, they wonder how that happens? It's not actually that far from the truth. There are still kids who think you can't get pregnant the first time, or that if you do it standing up or in the water tat you won't get pregnant. There's still a lot of myths going around about pregnancy, masturbation, and sex in general because no one wants to talk to kids about it. Parents don't want to deal with it, they don't want the schools teaching it, they want all the tv shows that deal with it taken off the air (I'm generalizing, of course). There isn't sufficiant education about it. Buys are still afraid to go into stores and ask for condoms because they're afraid of it getting back to their folks. Girls don't want to ask about birth control or buy condoms because they are afraid they will get labled as a slut, even if they just want to have sex with the one guy they actually feel something for. I don't know why so many parents and adults insist on sticking their heads in the fucking dirt on this issue. Nothing stopped them from fucking around when they were young, and they need to realize that nothing is going to stop their kids. If I give my kid a gun, I want him to know how to use it. So why do we let all these pistol packing, 18 year old bags of explosive hormonal matter out into the world with no idea how their weapons work? Everyone is at fault here, kids and adults, but adults moreso for not stepping up to the plate and being real with ther kids about things.

I don't follow. Most people do understand sex is part of being human - that's why most people are able to do it safely and responsibly. Of course sex isn't just part of being human, it's part of being an animal. It's dangerous to rely solely on animal instincts. If we did what you seem to be suggesting, cod doc, we'd be in danger of losing our rational.

I agree with what InsertUsername is saying. If you want an Abortion and think it is cool, fine. If you think it is an abomination and a sin, fine. To each their own. Just don't try to push your opinions of the matter onto others. And to be honest I feel hypocritical even discussing Abortion because I have a penis.

So the better outcome is to force people to follow through with unwanted pregnancy? Or for imminent mothers to attempt an abortion without medical aid or to attempt suicide in a fit of depression? It seems the lesser of two consequences is to have the child, that being violated under local anesthetic for an hour and half is too easy an option, that level of come-uppance is somehow not enough? You think anyone who's had an abortion is lining up to have their ticket punched again next week?

C'mon, that shit ain't right. You suggest that advocating safe sex and the the consequences of pregnancy be ramped up. I totally agree. You suggest that anyone who has a child but doesn't want to keep it put it up for adoption so childless parents can raise kids? I totally agree.

I just don't think forcing people to have children is really an answer to anything.



It could be your son/daughter you're discussing one day.
Might be nice to know you have options

I only feel that way because I think this is a woman's issue. I have been through the process, and will be able to share an experienced point of view with my kids. And hopefully I will have helped inform them enough to make the right decisions.

Here's my 2 cents, hhmmm maybe 4 cents. IMO, the only time abortion should be allowed is if the mothers life is in danger. And yes that means, IMO, that abortion should not be allowed even if the child is deformed, born into an abject situation or was conceived thru the act of rape, incest, or any other reason.

Just because the child/fetus/mass of tissue/ball of cells (whatever you like to call it to make yourself feel better) is conceived thru a criminal act does not make the new "lifeform" a criminal. Although the acts of rape and incest are two of the worst possible acts, it does not justify ending the "potential life" of another, IMO. The rapist should be punished, not the unborn. People try justify an abortion after rape because they lump the evil act in with the unwanted pregnancy. They are two totally seperate issues. No matter whether one act caused the other or not.

And anyone who says the abortion debate is about "choice" is spinning. That's the feel good phrase that gets people all emotional. The real debate is whether you believe the unborn should have rights. If you believe the unborn do not or should not have rights then; of course, you can justify your belief that a woman has the right to have an abortion. If you believe that the unborn has or should have rights, then the right to life takes precident over anyones' right to "choose" anything.

Our founding documents list our rights in this order ... Life, liberty (choice), pursuit of happiness. Those rights are not listed in that order by accident. Plus, if ya think about it, it makes sense. In other words, we all have the right to make choices (liberty) that make us happy as long as those choices do not threaten the lives of others.

So, again, the debate is not about "choice", the debate is about whether an unborn child is a lifeform and should it have rights. You either say yes or no. That is the true abortion debate.

God bless, may the force be with you, and never call a wookiee "stupid".

Respectfully,

Moff

This is one of the silliest bits of arguing I find that people do.

Really, any comments on any other part of my post?

The founding fathers (of America, that is) do not have ALL the answers

Never said they did

You don't know whether or not those three items (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) were listed in order of importance, or whether it just flows better that way.

Ok, what do think takes precident? A persons right to be alive,
a persons right to to make a choice, or a persons right to be happy?

Modern laws have the same basic premise... You have the right to make choices as long as those choices don't kill another person. You have the right to be happy, as long what you have done to become happy did not cost another person their life.

There's nothing in the Constitution specifically about abortion

Never said there was. I simply said life takes precident over choice. The debate is whether or not the unborn is a lifeform and whether it should have rights.

Watch, in the future debate on whether or not AI should have rights, they'll quote the 14th Ammendment.

The debate on AI will be on two fronts.

Whether AI should be recognized as a lifeform and if so, should that possible lifeform have the same rights as humans. Or, are those rights self-evident.

I like how you think Moff. I'm not only a Wookiee, but I also play one on TV.

I do think it's about choice... It's a moral thing with the whole is the fetus "life" it's just a big fucking grey area If I've ever seen one because who can really say. We kill animals every day to eat them in order to survive... animals kill their young at times as well to survive... aren't humans just animals with bigger brains? That totally trivializes everything but let me share...

My wife had an abortion when she was young growing up in Cuba. In her case it was a result of 2 situations.

The first one was my father in law. She was 14 years old when it happened. Her boyfriend was a 15 year old I believe. Word around the campfire is that my father in law would've beat the ever loving shit out of this kid if he found out he was sleeping with his 14 year old daughter.

The second was that they literally could not afford to have another mouth to feed. As it was life was difficult for them to begin with, adding a child to their situation would've complicated things in a way that I could never understand. Things are rough in a country like Cuba where most of the population is thinking about how it is that they're gonna get their next meal... or a bit of gasoline for a car... etc.. etc... My parents are Cuban but they're already in their 70's so they are coming from a different era over there. I grew up in NYC's upper west side so I can't say that I can relate.

Her mother and her chose to go that route because of the situation.

However, with that being said, if my wife were to get pregnant now without us planning for it... (We're in a situation in which money is tight.. you know typical early marriage stuff...)we agree that abortion would not be an option. After you've conceived life for the first time, it changes your perception of things.

We have a 2 year son... watching him grow and seeing how he develops has been the most rewarding experience in my life. Creating a life, and by that I don't mean the sexual aspect of it, is something that I could never really describe with the right words...I just couldn't do it justice... by having this child I have learned what unconditional love really is.

My son had a really bad cold last month. He was stuffed up all the time, chest full of phlem, fever... when he coughed and I heard the rattling and him losing breath, I felt pure anguish. It would literally hurt me every time I heard him cough. I could see in his face that he felt awful and it was torture to me. After he got better I told my father that I understood what he meant when he said to me that being a father was a difficult thing. He then told me to wait until I "walk into my son's room and find a shoebox full of pot in an acoustic guitar case..." Totally uncalled for, but I got his gist. (In retrospect it was real bad herb, but I had a shitload of it!!!!!)

I digress.

I couldn't imagine a life without my son and knowing that a 15 minute procedure could've stopped me from experiencing what I am now... I dunno.



If god forbid she were to be raped, it would be a different situation. I speak for her because we've discussed this before at length. Granted the child would not be criminal, but the human psyche is a fucked up thing. One way or another that act of conception is going to be tied to that child forever. Would the mother treat her child different knowing that? Yes there is adoption, but how about carrying the child to term? Thinking about that act of conception day in and day out? Were I in that situation I really don't know what I would do.

I'm content with the fact that there is a choice. It's a difficult one, and a moral one as well, but it's a choice.

If Im all over the place please forgive me as I am a little high. I felt the overwhelming need to share, but I'll go back to lurking now and interject every once in a while.

I like how you think Moff. I'm not only a Wookiee, but I also play one on TV.

LOL

It's a moral thing with the whole is the fetus "life" it's just a big fucking grey area If I've ever seen one because who can really say.

So ya know where I'm coming from....I consider "potential life" equivalent to life.

aren't humans just animals with bigger brains?

I disagree. But, to each their own.

...but let me share...

Thanks for sharing. It is a very emotional issue on both sides.

One way or another that act of conception is going to be tied to that child forever. Would the mother treat her child different knowing that? Yes there is adoption, ...

I personally view the argument of "psychological problems" and/or potential treatment and/or the conditions the child may/will grow up in merely as excuses. What might happen or is expected to happen is not a valid argument, IMO, for the determination on whether something innocent should be allowed to exist.

I completely understand why people would have differing points of view and I don't think less of their opinion. We simply place different levels of importance on different aspects of the issue.

If Im all over the place please forgive me as I am a little high. I felt the overwhelming need to share, but I'll go back to lurking now and interject every once in a while.

No worries. I just like to have good debates with intellectually honest people. Hopefully people will view me as an intellectually honest person who they may disagree with. Appreciate the dialogue.

Wow, you even commented seriously on the AI bit. Get a glove, reach in, and take the steal rod out of your ass, man.

Whoa. It's only in half way. Chill.

Now granted, a decent amount of my replies were directed more towards the general rash of people...

understood

Yes, the child is not guilty of a crime, but is also not fully and completely independent of the situation...

We disagree. IMO, a seperate innocent "individual", regardless of their DNA, has a right to procreate with their DNA as you or I. My previous post states how I feel about the psychological issues.