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Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 4:36 am
 
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Topeka wrote:
Or Maz for the matter. Anytime she was onscreen I though what an incredible animatronic could have been made. While there was nothing terribly wrong with either of the CG characters, they didn't blow away with performance or photorealism.


I think having a CGI character represented through a hologram is even tougher to pull off. I noticed this in the prequels that they look even less authentic when attempting to portray a character through hologram.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 5:22 am
 
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CoGro wrote:

(.....)

This was a very safe Star Wars movie. I'm truly happy people care about Star Wars again, average moviegoers have a new entry point into the series, and that it's regained its title as King of the Box Office. I'm just hoping by the time Episode 9 screens in 2019 we've gotten a story worthy of what came before it. One of the best things to come out of TFA is that it raises a lot of interesting questions that can create a lot of creative debate and discussions about what comes next. From that standpoint, mission accomplished.



Agree 100% with your whole post.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 6:37 am
 
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I would've like more Poe, in fact I feel they could've just made it poe and rey and done away with finn. From the book and a post Daisy made on instagram they are setting up Poe and Rey as a couple so more time together would've been good. Next movie I suspect he will be aboard Falcon with them


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 7:11 am
 

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Finn was so pointless. I feel bad for saying this but I feel like the only reason they made him prominent was because he was black. He didn't really add much at all to the film except for some stupid one liners/comic relief. Just Disney trying to be PC.

They should see how that worked out for South Park, CO.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 8:27 am
 
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Topeka wrote:
...they didn't blow away with performance or photorealism.


Yet a friend of mine had no idea that Lupita was playing Maz until the credits rolled. My friend thought Maz was Linda Hunt or someone like that with heavy prosthetic make up.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 9:06 am
 
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The movie was excellent, but not perfect. I told a friend that I thought that the marketing was of (slightly) higher quality than the movie. That comment wasn't meant to be a slight against the movie at all, just high praise of how they built the hype before release. I made a bit of an ass of myself with speculation in these forums, but I'll remain here to eat my humble pie. The admins of the site know what's up, and I'll always bow to their knowledge and be thankful for what they do.

Still, if Rey doesn't turn out to be Luke's daughter, I will be extremely disappointed in the screenwriters of the ST. As for her abilities in this movie, as someone said before, it has to be because she was trained as a young child but repressed the memories of that training because of the trauma of being separated from her family. Was it only her mother who abandoned her? Was it Luke (presuming he's the father)? Both? Were there others? I thought Luke's reaction to Rey was one of surprise, but I suppose they could play that off as being because of seeing the long-lost family lightsaber as much as it was because of seeing Rey. I'm glad they're leaving mysteries regarding Rey's past to be revealed in VIII and IX, but all signs point to her being a Skywalker.

I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't seen it a second time yet. I really need time and repeated viewings to completely digest how it fits in with what came before. Acting and story was on-point, as was everything else, as far as I could discern.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 9:08 am
 
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ki adi moonshine wrote:
Finn was so pointless. I feel bad for saying this but I feel like the only reason they made him prominent was because he was black. He didn't really add much at all to the film except for some stupid one liners/comic relief. Just Disney trying to be PC.

They should see how that worked out for South Park, CO.


I have trouble disagreeing with you but I don't want to be that cynical. I do believe in Boyega as an actor so I don't blame him. Lando was an organic character, there because the story required it. Adding Finn does feel unnecessary. If they wanted a person of color the best damn pilot in the galaxy could've been Steve Calrissian but then it starts to feel like fan fiction with all these characters being related. Finn isn't going away so I hope Rian can find more for him


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 9:13 am
 
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kmartnintendude wrote:
The movie was excellent, but not perfect. I told a friend that I thought that the marketing was of (slightly) higher quality than the movie. That comment wasn't meant to be a slight against the movie at all, just high praise of how they built the hype before release. I made a bit of an ass of myself with speculation in these forums, but I'll remain here to eat my humble pie. The admins of the site know what's up, and I'll always bow to their knowledge and be thankful for what they do.

I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't seen it a second time yet. I really need time and repeated viewings to completely digest how it fits in with what came before. Acting and story was on-point, as was everything else, as far as I could discern.


Good to have new blood here. Most of us have heard each others opinions for more than a decade so fresh perspective, no matter how far off, is always welcome.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 9:21 am
 

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I haven't seen it yet but have spoiled myself on everything including videos of key moments.

I've approached it similar as those in this thread who have said they were cautious about the movie without Lucas's involvement.

I've largely resolved myself to it that without Lucas at the helm, it's "Expanded Universe-ish" level entertainment. I don't mean that in a derogatory fashion. I've been entertained by most of the EU I've read including nearly all Dark Horse comics and many novels. With the exception of the Yuuzhan Vong novels, I've felt nearly all of the EU offerings were good and a few rising to great (IMHO, the Jedi Apprentice series stand along side any movie).

But many seem to have a visible "clunk" ranging from minor (force-immune salamanders?) to slightly disturbing (Luke joins a Palpatine clone to learn why his father joined the dark side?) to outright awful (the entirely of the Yuuzhan Vong novels). These "clunks" are things that I have never felt from any of the movies. Or in other words, "Lucas would never have done..." For example, I can't see Lucas coming up with a Death Star that fires lasers through hyperspace (to me it's a "slightly disturbing clunk" in that it damages the story "world". Similar to how the transporter plot device was hyper-powered in the latest Star Trek movies eliminated the "in-world" need for starships).

As I said though, despite the "clunks", I've been entertained. I thought the new EU novels were really good (Lost Stars was great) as well as Legends-era stuff like Cade Skywalker-era and Old Republic. Overwall, I'd say my EU enjoyment has averaged to be a solid 85-90% compared to Lucas's 100%. Good, just not as good.

With that background, for those who were less than 100% happy with TFA is it fair to consider it at the same level as EU entertainment compared to Lucas's work?


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 9:40 am
 

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I guess if it's not Lucas, it's not Lucas. While I was entertained by certain parts of the prequel trilogy, I feel like it could've used a lot less "Lucas". I would never say that no mere mortal could ever write a star wars movie as good as Lucas. That's ridiculous. I've read some great EU stuff, and I've quit reading halfway through because it was laughable. While some of George's work can be used as a gold standard, other works should be avoided like the plague. So the playing field nowadays is equal for anyone who attempts to write for one of these new movies and they should make it their own.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 9:47 am
 
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Cheesus wrote:
But many seem to have a visible "clunk" ranging from minor (force-immune salamanders?) to slightly disturbing (Luke joins a Palpatine clone to learn why his father joined the dark side?) to outright awful (the entirely of the Yuuzhan Vong novels). These "clunks" are things that I have never felt from any of the movies. Or in other words, "Lucas would never have done..." For example, I can't see Lucas coming up with a Death Star that fires lasers through hyperspace (to me it's a "slightly disturbing clunk" in that it damages the story "world". Similar to how the transporter plot device was hyper-powered in the latest Star Trek movies eliminated the "in-world" need for starships).

With that background, for those who were less than 100% happy with TFA is it fair to consider it at the same level as EU entertainment compared to Lucas's work?


Yeah, there were several hyperspace-related "clunks," as you put it. The Falcon went into hyperspace from within another ship, and, later on, it exited hyperspace within a planet's atmosphere. That seemed to violate previously unstated but presumed in-universe rules about how hyperspace worked.

I wasn't 100% happy with the movie, but I think the issues I had were nit-picks. Regarding the EU (now Legends), I ate up the lore from the West End Games RPG/Pre-prequel EU era when I was a kid, and I even remember the Star Wars CCG rulebook saying all EU material referenced on the cards was "official Lucasfilm lore." I naively took that to mean that the then-upcoming prequels wouldn't contradict the EU. I quickly realized, as the prequels were released, that it was great that Lucas largely disregarded EU. That said, regardless of any trepidation I may have about Lucas' lack of involvement with the new movies, I would still put them in a category above the EU because, unlike the EU, I doubt we will ever find out they "don't count" moving forward.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 1:43 pm
 
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Quote:
The Falcon went into hyperspace from within another ship, and, later on, it exited hyperspace within a planet's atmosphere. That seemed to violate previously unstated but presumed in-universe rules about how hyperspace worked.

Yeah, but it's addressed in the film. Han doesn't just do it, it's commented on. Like "Woah! Can you do that?!"

"I never ask that question until I've tried it!" etc...


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 1:57 pm
 

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ki adi moonshine wrote:
Finn was so pointless. I feel bad for saying this but I feel like the only reason they made him prominent was because he was black. He didn't really add much at all to the film except for some stupid one liners/comic relief. Just Disney trying to be PC.

They should see how that worked out for South Park, CO.

stan Marsh wrote:
I have trouble disagreeing with you but I don't want to be that cynical. I do believe in Boyega as an actor so I don't blame him. Lando was an organic character, there because the story required it.

Adding Finn does feel unnecessary. If they wanted a person of color the best damn pilot in the galaxy could've been Steve Calrissian but then it starts to feel like fan fiction with all these characters being related. Finn isn't going away so I hope Rian can find more for him

Boyega did a great job with what he was given. It's a shame because he's a great actor, but he was given such a shitty character to play. I'm hoping he becomes a leader in the Resistance and finally learns how to fly, lol.

Also some people are shipping FinnxPoe, lolol.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 5:23 pm
 
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ki adi moonshine wrote:
Finn was so pointless. I feel bad for saying this but I feel like the only reason they made him prominent was because he was black. He didn't really add much at all to the film except for some stupid one liners/comic relief. Just Disney trying to be PC.

They should see how that worked out for South Park, CO.

stan Marsh wrote:
I have trouble disagreeing with you but I don't want to be that cynical. I do believe in Boyega as an actor so I don't blame him. Lando was an organic character, there because the story required it.

Adding Finn does feel unnecessary. If they wanted a person of color the best damn pilot in the galaxy could've been Steve Calrissian but then it starts to feel like fan fiction with all these characters being related. Finn isn't going away so I hope Rian can find more for him

ki adi moonshine wrote:
Boyega did a great job with what he was given. It's a shame because he's a great actor, but he was given such a shitty character to play. I'm hoping he becomes a leader in the Resistance and finally learns how to fly, lol.

Also some people are shipping FinnxPoe, lolol.


Well normally giving your jacket to someone is a sign. Finn is a total bottom but Poe is the bishounen


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 6:01 pm
 

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ummmm...


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 9:40 pm
 
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One of the absolute best things about the movie is Harrison Ford's performance. He really is classic Han Solo and it's very impressive.

"What did you do when you were based here?"

"Sanitation."

"SANITATION!"

...

"We'll figure something out. We'll use the Force."

"THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS!"

Great lines, but even better executed. The acting is top notch all around.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 10:25 pm
 
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Ford seemed to get the most out of all of his lines. Even his "Ben!' was a pitch-perfect in its angry father tone.

Of course, Kasdan also gets a lot of credit. He knows what works and what doesn't for Han. After watching this film, I am much more excited to see how the Solo Anthology movie turns out.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2015 11:23 pm
 
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I was truly shocked and a little frightened (somehow) by how good Ford's performance got. I mean, when they first walked into the movie, it had kind of a variety show skit vibe to it. I wasn't feeling it. However, as soon as he started trying to negotiate with those guys, Ford WAS that fucking character again. He wasn't just running around in the suit and delivering terrible lines and sounding nothing like the character ("Well, the way you're sinking your teeth into those wubble-u's"). He yelled out "What's the problem?" (I didn't even know he could sound like that anymore) and he looked and sounded like fucking 1980. It was insane.


Post Posted: December 23rd 2015 2:45 pm
 
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E_CHU_TA! wrote:
Ford seemed to get the most out of all of his lines. Even his "Ben!' was a pitch-perfect in its angry father tone.

Of course, Kasdan also gets a lot of credit. He knows what works and what doesn't for Han. After watching this film, I am much more excited to see how the Solo Anthology movie turns out.


Not aiming for hyperbole here, but Ford's performance when he meets Kylo/Ben is probably one of the strongest acting jobs in the series. The moment when he spots Kylo going out onto the catwalk was quite touching. Ford nailed the nuance of that scene. I actually bought that he was the father to Kylo.

It's rare that acting can trump story, but in TFA it did. Not saying the writing was bad - the dialogue was actually very good. And I think Kasdan is such a strong writer that he was able to write a good script, in spite of Abrams. But the liberties that were taken with believability are well-documented above. I think they are minor issues in the grand scheme of the film thanks to the execution elsewhere.


Post Posted: December 23rd 2015 3:20 pm
 

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Kasdan may be a good writer but his push for so little exposition was a huge mistake. I don't understand it at all.

I do think it was good in spite of JJ. JJ is mediocre at best and I am thrilled he is not directing VIII or IX. He actually regrets not doing VIII because the script, but it wouldn't be the same script without Rian Johnson so it kinda makes no sense...


Post Posted: December 23rd 2015 3:57 pm
 
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I loved it.

Main gripes:

  • We didn't need another Death Star... It was even in the movie where everyone's in the room going, "Oh fuck, Death Star 3.0" Abrams didn't even try to hide that.
  • The ending was alright... If Abrams had used a wide shot of Luke and Rey instead of that sloppy rotating shot, it would have flowed better.


Post Posted: December 23rd 2015 8:33 pm
 
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Little late to the party but finally saw the film Monday night. I really liked it! I must say this thread certainly helped keep my expectations in check, not that they were sky-high to begin with. I think a lot of the criticisms discussed here already are very valid. The film is by no means flawless and while it didn't dampen my enjoyment the first time, it'll be interesting to see if that holds up with repeat viewings. Still trying to let it sink in. I had a much longer dissertation written out but many of the main points have already been touched upon so I just share a few things.

Snoke has me intrigued. I'm very interested to find out more about in the next films. Is he a Sith? Is he Darth Plagueis? How did he find and seduce Ben Solo? Good things to explore further. While the character intrigues me, the design does not. Quite a letdown in that department for me. As many have said, he's like a hybrid of Voldemort, and the Engineer from Prometheus with Gollum-esque fingers. Just a very bland design. Andy Serkis' various interviews made it sound like motion capture and CG were necessary because the design was so complex it could not be achieved practically. Didn't seem like it was needed. I did like him appearing as a huge hologram though.

Maz was also a bland design. Nothing against the character herself, I just didn't feel she looked all that interesting or Star Wars-y enough.

Honestly, the designs as a whole were something I had reservations about since the first trailer dropped. Too much recycled stuff with a new coat of paint basically. TIE's, X-Wings, Stormtroopers. We all love those things but c'mon, in 30 years are we to believe the only advances a TIE went through was cannons added to the rear? Hopefully VIII and IX will have a better variety of ship and character designs, they can't keep going back to the OT well or dusting off old McQuarrie stuff.

I really dig all the new characters, especially Rey and Kylo. I feel pretty good about this new cast being able to carry on the torch for the next two films. I don't really get some of the hate for Finn. Granted, he was kinda a means to get a portion of the story to point a to point b but he provided some levity and was well acted by Boyega. Hopefully, he'll have a more interesting arc in the next one. Loved Kylo as a new villain and how he was this intimidating presence on the outside but underneath the mask was a scared, conflicted and highly unstable boy. I like how he was driven to fits of rage when presented with failure and even taking out some of his anger on that one First Order officer, much like Vader was prone to do.

Anthony Daniels apparently doesn't know how to voice Threepio anymore. He hasn't sounded right since ROTJ.

I haven't seen much talk about the lightsaber duel here yet but I thought it was amazing! I'd rank this as the best duel since ESB. The sabers felt like they had more weight again with raw, hard-hitting strikes. The glows looked right and a dark, spooky, snowy forest was a great new environment for a lightsaber duel. Nick Gillard brought a breath of fresh air to saber fighting in TPM, with fast paced, high adrenaline and acrobatic choreography. It was something we hadn't seen before but with AOTC and ROTS, I thought his stuff began to look too choreographed, less like sword fights and more like dance routines with swords. Lucas and Burtt compounded matters by over-editing and framing so close you couldn't actually see or appreciate the sword-play/choreography such as it was. This duel thankfully didn't have those issues, you could see the fight clearly and the
editing felt natural with shots matching from one cut to the next. Hopefully the new sword master/stunt-coordinator returns for VIII and IX because I was very impressed with this duel.

The score was lacking but there was some stuff in there that appealed to me. I haven't listened to the soundtrack on its own yet.

Overall I enjoyed it despite its flaws and it has me excited about Episode VIII.

7.5/10. An 8 if I'm generous.


Post Posted: December 23rd 2015 10:28 pm
 
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I think you'll find that it holds up, and improves, upon repeat viewings. At least for me it has. I've had a turnaround.

Great moments pop out more. I have to admit that I couldn't actually process the movie on first viewing because I was distracted. I'm drawn back to the characters, to the lighter comedic moments, awesome set pieces, and some epic Star Wars moments.

For what it's worth I would rate it an 8.3/10.


Post Posted: December 24th 2015 9:47 am
 
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Just something to consider regarding the griping around "death star 3.0"....

The Empire/First Order is looking for a Mass Destruction type weapon. Something that can take out planets and billions/trillions of people at a time. It's an allegory for a nuclear warhead. The Deathstars were good, but they had limited range, and had to travel to the planet to get there. Starkiller is significantly more advanced and doesn't have to move...

There is a reason the designs look the same, there are only so many ways you can create a weapon like that. I have no doubt that we'll see another version of this before IX is done.


Post Posted: December 27th 2015 4:47 am
 
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I've seen TFA twice now and wanted to wait for my 2nd viewing until I commented. I have to say that the 2nd screening crystalised both the good and bad for me. The Force Awakens puts me in mind of Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, in that it calls back to the past a bit too much, is carried by the return on an older iconic character (who is supporting the 'new blood'), and is a film of 2 halves... The things it does well tend to be in the first half of the film. The things it does not so well mostly comprise the second half.

Pros

• Rey and Finn. These new characters sit well alongside existing characters within Star Wars.
• The film establishes the new lead characters without bogging the story down with heavy exposition and back-story.
• Han Solo and Chewie. It's great to see these two back on the screen. Han Solo’s presence neither detracts from the new leads, nor does he feel like excess baggage. It’s a good balance… Ford also looks great as a grizzled Solo.

• Both the dialogue and acting (within the first half of the film) allows for an investment in the characters, particularly Rey and Finn. It’s much easier to relate to them than it was Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme. That isn’t a slight on the PT, as I believe this to be a stylistic choice… the PT was much more melodramatic and the dialogue/acting was much more clipped and stylized (almost Downton Abbey). TFA clearly adopts a more contemporary style, which makes the 2 leads that much more relatable.

• The visual effects were done well and it had high production values (the Falcon set was spectacular).
• It’s new Star Wars. What’s not to like unless you have no soul?

Cons

• Over use of tropes and the re-using of plot elements/beats of other Star Wars films.

• Inconsistencies, conveniences and questionable logic permeate the 2nd half of the film, in my opinion. I get the feeling that the pre-production squeeze really hamstrung this film in terms of getting a fully coherent story/plot.

• Max Von Sydow – or lack of.
• Characters are introduced and then just disappear without rhyme or reason… everyone from Poe to Phasma to Maz.

• Snoke – for all my championing of the use of CGI, I thought Snoke to be a clichéd creation. No real relevance to the story. Spouting Emperor/Sidious type lines of dialogue. He would have been better serviced if he'd been left out of this film altogether... perhaps just referenced by name.

• Leia – Again, her role was perfunctory at best and Carries acting was a bit wooden. I can't tell whether that 'wooden' feeling was Carrie herself or the scenes she was given.

• Lack of any tangible peril/jeopardy after Rey and Finn escape Jakuu… be it the escape from the freighter, the attack on Maz’s castle or the attack on Starkiller. Again, I think this is a consequence of poor plotting. We don’t really have an insight to Snoke/Kylo Ren’s aims, so we can’t fear the outcome for our protagonists. Starkillerbase seems to just randomly drop into the story, as is the rush to destroy it, so it’s threat is substantially diminished and the finale’s ‘attack run’ on the super weapon is just same ole’ same ole’ (see ANH as the best example of providing tangible peril/threat).

• Lack of creativity in the films design. Whilst there’s nothing wrong with what’s on display per se, there seems to be very little that’s new in terms of aesthetic/design. I’m struggling to think of a ship or an environment, or a character, that looked substantially new/different to what we’ve seen before (apart from BB8 perhaps). This was a real shame for me, because Star Wars has always gone hand in hand with innovative concept/design work… be it X-Wings, Naboo Star fighters, Stormtroopers, Destroyer Droids, Jabba, Darth Maul etc.


In conclusion, I find TFA to be an average entry in the Star Wars films… It's a 6/10. It’s not a bad film; I just don’t find it to be any better (intellectually and emotionally) than the usual big budget Hollywood films. Still, it’s a Star Wars film… so I embrace it warts and all… and I hold out hope that Rian Johnson will take it to the next level.


Post Posted: December 27th 2015 1:42 pm
 
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1.09 billion and counting....fastest to a billion, globally. Fastest to 500 million domestically.


Haters are going to hate....you know what, my 9 year old stayed up through the entire movie....twice and has asked to see it a third time. This movie isn't for me. I get it. This movie is for her. And Disney just won her over.

More than having "more star wars" that I can enjoy, Disney made my kids love star wars, something the prequels didn't do. This is fantastic.


Post Posted: December 27th 2015 9:01 pm
 
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Doctor When wrote:
Leia – Again, her role was perfunctory at best and Carries acting was a bit wooden. I can't tell whether that 'wooden' feeling was Carrie herself or the scenes she was given.


I thought she did a great job expressionlessly delivering lines such as "It wash Shnoke, he shedouched our shun to the dark shide" and the effects guys did a great job digitally smoothing out her face for Abrams' awkward closeups. I wasn't in any way embarrassed watching her!


Post Posted: December 27th 2015 9:24 pm
 
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She did an admirable job. She didn't embarrass herself. But she doesn't sound like an older Carrie Fisher; she sounds like a different person.


Post Posted: December 27th 2015 11:28 pm
 
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ki adi moonshine wrote:
Kasdan may be a good writer but his push for so little exposition was a huge mistake. I don't understand it at all.


Less is more is screenwriting 101. And Kasdan is right. Look, everybody I've known has seen this film, and I've been surprised by how many of them have already said its one of their favorite movies of all-time. People don't give a crap about the Republic/First Order/Resistance/Empire/Trade Federation. It's good & evil, keep it simple.

Plus - I'd point out we don't know what the script Kasdan wrote looks like. It's clear the film was gutted in the edit (half the trailer dialogue hit the cutting room floor, for that to happen, a huge chunk of material got cut).

The film might have a lot of issues that people trained in the craft will recognize, but if the average audience member going doesn't notice it or care, does it matter? I'd liken it to cuisine. If a meal tastes good, I'm not going to care about any technique problems made along the way. Someone trained in that world might. In this case, I am trained in film, and still don't give a crap. If people pay 15 bucks for a movie and come out satisfied, the people involved in making the movie did their job.


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 6:11 am
 
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ki adi moonshine wrote:
Kasdan may be a good writer but his push for so little exposition was a huge mistake. I don't understand it at all.

MannyOrtez wrote:
Less is more is screenwriting 101. And Kasdan is right. Look, everybody I've known has seen this film, and I've been surprised by how many of them have already said its one of their favorite movies of all-time. People don't give a crap about the Republic/First Order/Resistance/Empire/Trade Federation. It's good & evil, keep it simple.

Plus - I'd point out we don't know what the script Kasdan wrote looks like. It's clear the film was gutted in the edit (half the trailer dialogue hit the cutting room floor, for that to happen, a huge chunk of material got cut).

The film might have a lot of issues that people trained in the craft will recognize, but if the average audience member going doesn't notice it or care, does it matter? I'd liken it to cuisine. If a meal tastes good, I'm not going to care about any technique problems made along the way. Someone trained in that world might. In this case, I am trained in film, and still don't give a crap. If people pay 15 bucks for a movie and come out satisfied, the people involved in making the movie did their job.


I'd say it matters. For me anyways, it's the difference between A New Hope and Transformers... or Wrath of Khan and Into Darkness.

TFA gets a pass from me for being Star Wars, and seeing Han et al on screen again... but it's also the most formulaic and by the numbers Star Wars film to date... in my humble opinion of course. I find it as frustrating as hell because, what TFA highlights, is how good it could have been with Lucas acting as producer/story writer, and how much better the PT could have been if Lucas had collaborated with someone like Abrams/Kasdan.


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Doctor When wrote:
I'd say it matters. For me anyways, it's the difference between A New Hope and Transformers... or Wrath of Khan and Into Darkness. TFA gets a pass from me for being Star Wars, and seeing Han et al on screen again... but it's also the most formulaic and by the numbers Star Wars film to date... in my humble opinion of course. I find it as frustrating as hell because, what TFA highlights, is how good it could have been with Lucas acting as producer/story writer, and how much better the PT could have been if Lucas had collaborated with someone like Abrams/Kasdan.


I agree with this part (bolded). I don't agree with comparing it to Transformers. It's still a good movie with great production. A couple plotholes and physically impossible things don't derail it very much for me.


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 9:30 am
 
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I think the Problem with the Exposition is that you feel like u missed so much in the past 30 years. Ist like they just could put Kylo's fall and Lukes disappearing into a movie of it's own. I can see where they where going, trying to reach the mystics of the original STAR WARS but when u knew that this is like the movie which continues a 6 movie series it's Kind of leaves u asking for more Background. TFA could have been like Episode VIII from a certain Point of view with Ep VII beeing the movie which brings Kylo down and Luke away from the galaxy.

Iam therefore really looking Forward exploring the time between Jedi and Awakens with novels and Comics...


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 10:31 am
 
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The only part of the audience that cares about those kinds of things are Star Wars nerds like us. When we first saw ANH were we crying about seeing a movie about the Clone Wars or the movie where Vader kills Luke's father? It was fun to speculate but it didn't ruin ANH that these things weren't explained. The movie wasn't about that.

Manny is right here: this film is self-contained and doesn't need backstory exposition for it to work. You have Episode 8 and 9 to tell more of what happened between 6 and 7. Hell, the central mystery to the entire movie was a cliffhanger based on what must happened to Rey between 6 and 7. This will get resolved in time and I'm not sure I need to see a movie where Kylo falls to the dark side. I already saw a movie like that - it was called Revenge of the Sith and the kid playing Anakin was a bitch.

TFA has plenty of problems, but lack of a backstory is not one of them.


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 10:39 am
 
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Its my humble opinion. Its fine if you dont agree. Like I said: I hope they cover that stuff in the novels and Comics coming up. Iam sure they will after Ep VIII when many mysteries are solved.

And yes: Fans where begging for The Clone Wars...they where wondering what it was all about...at least from what I learned from first Generation fans.


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 11:40 am
 

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I didnt care about the clone wars and the story of vaders fall wasnt the most satisfying... it played out better in my imagination. Id love to hear stories with slight descriptions... I dont need it drawn out for me.


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 11:48 am
 
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Just found this on the net....its a good read...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/s ... .ka3ZQ8LoM

Saw the movie & totally loved it....a few niggles but nothing really to complain about.


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 11:51 am
 
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Doctor When wrote:
I'd say it matters. For me anyways, it's the difference between A New Hope and Transformers... or Wrath of Khan and Into Darkness.

TFA gets a pass from me for being Star Wars, and seeing Han et al on screen again... but it's also the most formulaic and by the numbers Star Wars film to date... in my humble opinion of course. I find it as frustrating as hell because, what TFA highlights, is how good it could have been with Lucas acting as producer/story writer, and how much better the PT could have been if Lucas had collaborated with someone like Abrams/Kasdan.

MannyOrtez wrote:
I agree with this part (bolded). I don't agree with comparing it to Transformers. It's still a good movie with great production. A couple plotholes and physically impossible things don't derail it very much for me.

Oh I wasn't directly comparing TFA to Transformers... I think it's better than that. But I also believe it's not nearly as good as ANH/TESB, and that's largely due to it being much more formulaic and not as creatively progressive as it probably should/could have been. TFA is a good popcorn flick, but I think the better films are more than that.


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 1:37 pm
 

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After my second viewing last night my opinion has only grown more positive, this is a great Star Wars film! Saw it at ArcLight Hollywood so the sound and picture were outstanding. The first time we had partied before hand so there was a lot of stuff that I missed. The scenes that didn't work for me the first time I thought were fine this go around.. (For example when Finn fights the Stormtrooper at the castle, "Traitor!")

For me SNOKE is the big mystery for the next film. It's like they totally know how to screw with our heads. First off, Snoke has this huge scar on his head that I didn't notice before, and it looks exactly like the one Vader had on his head. Probably doesn't mean anything but if I was a kid I'd be like 'oh damn it's Vaderr'. Second, the music they play for Snoke sounds a lot like the play from ROTS when Anakin is told the legend of Plaugis. My first impression is that it's just good 'sith-y' music that supports the scene, but on the other hand it could mean something because Star Wars does use musical themes/cues for characters.

Since they've made a point of saying the bad guys are not Sith it gives me reason to think that it may be a story point. Snoke is suppose to have been around during the time of the OT and had to have been well aware of the Sith, so it's as if they do not have the same philosophy as Sith or were an opposing faction. There are seven Knights of Ren, perhaps the rule of two is forgotten or ignored and that plays into their defeat. Will be interesting to see how 8 and 9 play out! :yay:


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 2:38 pm
 
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CoGro wrote:
The only part of the audience that cares about those kinds of things are Star Wars nerds like us. When we first saw ANH were we crying about seeing a movie about the Clone Wars or the movie where Vader kills Luke's father? It was fun to speculate but it didn't ruin ANH that these things weren't explained. The movie wasn't about that.

Manny is right here: this film is self-contained and doesn't need backstory exposition for it to work. You have Episode 8 and 9 to tell more of what happened between 6 and 7. Hell, the central mystery to the entire movie was a cliffhanger based on what must happened to Rey between 6 and 7. This will get resolved in time and I'm not sure I need to see a movie where Kylo falls to the dark side. I already saw a movie like that - it was called Revenge of the Sith and the kid playing Anakin was a bitch.

TFA has plenty of problems, but lack of a backstory is not one of them.



Agree and disagree.

Ep. 8 and 9 should be focused on telling the story of 8 and 9, not filling us in on what happened between 6-7. If 8-9 focus too much on the 6-7 gap, it will have exposed the storytelling failures of Ep. 7. Some/any back story - since there was virtually none - would have improved Ep. 7's biggest weakness and that being the utter lack of exposition for the audience. ANH perfectly balanced fast movement of the story with backstory exposition, the best examples being the Death Star conference room scenes: "The Emperor has dissolved the council permanently...." etc. etc.

I think greater exposition on a galaxy-wide scale would have helped the film immensely. Earlier establishment of Starkiller Base, just a line or two describing that the Hosnian system was the "new Coruscant." That way, Starkiller Base's presence and threat is more fleshed out and a sense of true loss is felt at the Hosnian system's destruction. Lucas's input here would have been crucial. Those details were a huge strength of his.

However, I agree that detailing the guts of Ren's fall to the dark can be left out of the films. Ep. 7 establishes him as an evil, but unstable former Jedi apprentice. He's already dark, so leave that sub-story to the comics and novels to tell. I have no doubt Ren's story is a painful and powerful one, one I sure as hell hope finds its way into the hands of a talented writer who can use the medium of a novel to give it the proper weight and detail (Matthew Stover, please).


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 5:21 pm
 
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SnakePlisken wrote:
Second, the music they play for Snoke sounds a lot like the play from ROTS when Anakin is told the legend of Plaugis. My first impression is that it's just good 'sith-y' music that supports the scene, but on the other hand it could mean something because Star Wars does use musical themes/cues for characters.


Yeah, they are eerily similar. So much so that it can't be a coincidence, at least I hope it is not. There's several youtube videos comparing the two. I know nothing about reading sheet music or understanding notes but this video states that the main difference is a third pitch in the ascending line. Very interesting.


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 6:38 pm
 

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If that sheet music is correct then it's no coincidence, that's almost identical. Maybe the big scar on is head is from when Sidious (tried to) kill him. I don't care one way or the other but a huge section of the fanbase will go ape shit if this is true.


Post Posted: December 28th 2015 9:47 pm
 
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royalguard96 wrote:
Agree and disagree.

Ep. 8 and 9 should be focused on telling the story of 8 and 9, not filling us in on what happened between 6-7. If 8-9 focus too much on the 6-7 gap, it will have exposed the storytelling failures of Ep. 7. Some/any back story - since there was virtually none - would have improved Ep. 7's biggest weakness and that being the utter lack of exposition for the audience. ANH perfectly balanced fast movement of the story with backstory exposition, the best examples being the Death Star conference room scenes: "The Emperor has dissolved the council permanently...." etc. etc.

I think greater exposition on a galaxy-wide scale would have helped the film immensely. Earlier establishment of Starkiller Base, just a line or two describing that the Hosnian system was the "new Coruscant." That way, Starkiller Base's presence and threat is more fleshed out and a sense of true loss is felt at the Hosnian system's destruction. Lucas's input here would have been crucial. Those details were a huge strength of his.

However, I agree that detailing the guts of Ren's fall to the dark can be left out of the films. Ep. 7 establishes him as an evil, but unstable former Jedi apprentice. He's already dark, so leave that sub-story to the comics and novels to tell. I have no doubt Ren's story is a painful and powerful one, one I sure as hell hope finds its way into the hands of a talented writer who can use the medium of a novel to give it the proper weight and detail (Matthew Stover, please).


I didn't put enough meat on the bones of my post, so I absolutely agree with your first point. I meant that the backstories hinted at in 7 will be more fully fleshed out in 8 and 9; the same way things hinted at in ANH were further explored in ESB, and so on.

I do agree with you that more exposition explaining galactic politics would help the film, but it relates back to what is the biggest problem with TFA to begin with: Starkiller. If there was no 'we need to blow up the Republic with a superweapon' subplot we would not need to care about the state of galactic politics. I'm not sure the solution is as easy as dropping a scene or two earlier in the film. You'd still be counting on the audience to pick up a minor detail, critical to the plot, that could be easily missed. (First rule of sales: tell them, tell them again, and then tell them again. In other words, your story needs to be clear as day).

For us to care about the Hosnian system's destruction at least one of our main characters needs to be deeply invested in its fate. We can't use Leia because we need to save her for a grand reveal after the battle of Tokodana, which takes place after the system has been destroyed. We could use Poe, but what's the context? Rey doesn't give a shit or know the Republic from atom, and Finn is a recent turncoat. There is no doubt that this is a narrative issue with the film. ANH succeeds because its McGuffin and characters are both directly (and personally) invested in destroying the Death Star. It's set up by the first lines of the crawl. TFA's McGuffin has to do with finding Luke, and its main characters are invested in finding Luke from frame one. The Starkiller plot on the other hand has nothing to do with any of our main characters and thus, we won't ever care about the Starkiller's targets or its destruction. This can't be fixed with just a scene or two: you'd need a total rewrite. In my eyes it should have been totally scrapped from the script.

Then again, this is big blockbuster entertainment and the filmmakers needed a boss battle with something to go boom at the end. Hence we have an undercooked plot.

I am not philosophically opposed to a bigger, badder Death Star. Although the device is tired, it still makes a ton of sense that a military dictatorship would need a super weapon to control the galaxy.

Quote:
And yes: Fans where begging for The Clone Wars...they where wondering what it was all about...at least from what I learned from first Generation fans.


We cared in a "wouldn't that be cool to know more about what the Clone Wars was" kind of way. Not in a "the plot of this movie doesn't work unless I know what the Clone Wars is" way.


Post Posted: December 29th 2015 1:35 am
 
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CoGro wrote:
royalguard96 wrote:
We cared in a "wouldn't that be cool to know more about what the Clone Wars was" kind of way. Not in a "the plot of this movie doesn't work unless I know what the Clone Wars is" way.


Well I didnt say something in the movie didnt work because we dont know what happend before Ep VII. I said it feels like there is so much more to it that I feel like I missed something on the path between Ep VI and VII. For me the Story of Kylo Ren would be something worthfull for a movie itself, considering its effect on the galaxy, the Jedi and the big 3 of the OT. Thats I felt like Rens Fall would have been a good Ep VII and everything after put into VIII and IX.

Iam positive that the Kylo Backstory will be fleshed out in the 2 other movies as well as Comics and novels. I assume that we wont get any of this storylines before Ep VIII will be released which will bring some big reveals I assume.


Post Posted: January 6th 2016 3:40 am
 
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KyleKartanMG wrote:
CoGro wrote:
royalguard96 wrote:
We cared in a "wouldn't that be cool to know more about what the Clone Wars was" kind of way. Not in a "the plot of this movie doesn't work unless I know what the Clone Wars is" way.


Well I didnt say something in the movie didnt work because we dont know what happend before Ep VII. I said it feels like there is so much more to it that I feel like I missed something on the path between Ep VI and VII. For me the Story of Kylo Ren would be something worthfull for a movie itself, considering its effect on the galaxy, the Jedi and the big 3 of the OT. Thats I felt like Rens Fall would have been a good Ep VII and everything after put into VIII and IX.

Iam positive that the Kylo Backstory will be fleshed out in the 2 other movies as well as Comics and novels. I assume that we wont get any of this storylines before Ep VIII will be released which will bring some big reveals I assume.

That feeling you have is shared. I believe this is down to the script, more specifically, script constraints... that ultimately lead to a feeling of "huh?" rather than "I wonder what that was like?". And my own feeling as to why this is, is that the writers wanted to emulate the OT (specifically ANH) so much that they try and recreate the feeling of dropping audiences into the middle of the story (a la ANH)... but of course the difference is that ANH was part of a bigger treatment, and Lucas just decided to concentrate efforts on the more linear, cinematic section of it.

For me, the difference is that something like ANH has much better structure. The flow from one scene/environment to the next is more natural/organic. It hints at situations/stories that proceed it, but it never needs to address those things directly. TFA, on the other hand (IMO) seems much more contrived. It lacks structure, there doesn't really seem to be that much narrative coheshion (why must Luke be found? Even if Luke blames himself, why leave the galaxy to suffer for his mistake? Are the new baddies Sith? If so, doesn't that mean Anakin's sacrifice was a waste of time? If Knights of Ren, what's the difference given that they look and sound the same? What are the bad guys after? Etc. etc.), and many of the scenes/sequences seem surplus to requirements (Han's freighter, Starkiller base etc.).

In my opinion, TFA doesn't answer nearly as many questions as it raises... and I think that's not necessarily by design, but more a consequence of an undeveloped script.


Post Posted: January 17th 2016 3:49 pm
 

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Well I have seen TFA now 4 times. The last time with my Dad while visiting family in Germany for the holidays. My dad was the one who took me into ANH in 1977/78. I was 6. So i figured it would be a great father/son thing to do.

He did not like TFA. His words "I felt like they just took everything from the old movies and cooked it with a new soup".

And I agree. After 4 viewings I think its enough times to come to a conclusion.

To me, TFA is a opportunistic, lazy piece of filmmaking. I don't go into the cinema wanting for any movie to be bad. But I also am not blinded my lensflares and flashy visuals like a lot of younger people. I grew up with movies of the 70s, 80s and 90s. Im not saying we didn't have cheesy bad films during my time but certains films like ANH or Empire had that, hard to explain, substance even within its cheese?

Maybe im too much of a movie snob or too cynical. But I really feel TFA has proven that JJ is a hack and one trick pony. Do you remember how you felt when Luke ran over to see his Aunt/uncle burned by the empire? Put that single scene on. The emotion of that moment defined SW to me as a kid. You felt the empire was a treat cause you could relate. What if thats my uncle? Of course it was scifi and not real. Of course it had cheese dialog but IMO as bad as the prequels were, TFA is worse. TFA is basically a remake of ANH by a fan boy and not by a smart director/writer. I am even more shocked that Kasdan who had hand empire and indy, would let such a weak script slide. TFA reminds me a lot of Prometheus. Beautiful to look it but a shallow empty shell. Nothing makes sense within its OWN world. TFA was lazy because nothing was explained and its pace was too fast. And in my opinion that is TFA flaw. Its pace is more like a reel cut together. A bit of new hope, a bit of empire etc. Instead of having Rey slowly develop her powers she already would have beating the so called bad guy. It was laughable. Another flaw which i thought would make me happy but backfired was its nostalgia roots. I thought it had too much Solo and too little new guys. After the cantina scene i rolled my eyes and thought "JJ dude, do you have ANY NEW ideas on your own?"....

I know im ranting on here. Sorry if I am jumping around but the frustration of this films knows no limits. Esp. now that it made 1.5 billion it of course gives Disney no incentive to do better. So I will just have to make peace with the fact that no new SW will ever reach the brilliance of Empire or ANH. As a fan of Rian J (Looper) I have some tiny hopes that he will slow things down and make up for TFA but considering the talent JJ had, the time and money he had, TFA is an unacceptable sequel to ROTJ in my book.


Post Posted: January 17th 2016 11:44 pm
 

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Just saw in IMAX 3d.... beautiful movie... I want more xwing pilot shots. I though they did a great job showing how much a hit kylo took from the bowcaster without flying off the railing. he was obviously wounded yet on the attack the entire time. The entire premise of Star Wars is based off of "right place, right time" and luck. certainly a nod to all that


Post Posted: January 18th 2016 11:16 pm
 

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SPOILERS: It sucked like the last four Star Wars movies sucked, big surprise


Post Posted: January 21st 2016 8:11 pm
 

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After 3 viewings I have no desire to ever see TFA again. I much rather watch Empire for the 5493787 time. Heck even Jedi wasn't too bad. So long....


Post Posted: January 21st 2016 9:13 pm
 
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I also took in a third viewing and I was bored. Phantom Menace's story was more taut.

I so wanted to like it. Things felt really, REALLY right going into it and nearly everyone I know is unanimous in appreciation for Awakens. I feel like a miserable cynic but this is not what I want from my Star Wars.


Post Posted: January 21st 2016 10:30 pm
 
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Lucas, don't leave me!

I'm still high on TFA but I do miss The Flanneled One at the helm. :(


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