TPM deserves more respect.

If you think that it is irrelevant then you are totally missing some of the deep plot points that are hidden behind the childish facade.

The midichlorians may seem like a cheap shot at quantifying the force, but they are in fact a a key part of the plot of all six episodes that tells us what inbalance in the force really is; a lack of symbiosis. This whole symbiant concept is reflected in the relationship between the Naboo and the Gungans. The whole battle at the end of TPM echoes the concept that working for mutual benefit can achieve good. A key theme throughout the Star Wars saga, and a theme which is the antithesis of the darkside.

Also without going back as far as TPM we would have no Qui Gonn, no explanation of the force ghost, and no reason to have spectral Obi Wan Kenobi after he gets hacked in ANH.

TPM also sets up the character of Palpatine and helps develop reasons for people not to be suspicous of him. We are also introduced to Padme and Shmi. Even though Shmi's screen time is pretty limited in AOTC, the importance of her character and the impact on Anakin's is a huge plot point. It was important to introduce her in TPM.

And yet in TPM, the entire droid battle is won as a result of a complete accident. If you want to see good achieved through teamwork, look elsewhere.



We still don't have an explanation of the force ghost. And we don't need it. Are you saying if TPM didn't exist then spectral Obi-Wan wouldn't work because I think 20 years or so of SW history without TPM says otherwise.

I see you point but I still dislike that the the prequel trilogy suffers because of this disconnection. It could have worked better as a made for TV movie, or miniseries, or even a cartoon.



Well, it could be like this: Qui-Gon stays on the ship, Obi-Wan goes to Mos Espa with Padme and Jar Jar (actually, it would be better if Jar Jar didn't leave Naboo since his part is also drastically reduced in later movies), finds Anakin, thinks this talented kid should become a Jedi and asks his master to train him. Qui-Gon agrees and they BOTH argue with the council. But then Qui-Gon Jinn tragically dies and Obi-Wan still ends up being Anakin's master. This change wouldn't have diminished Qui-Gon's appeal in any way but would have established the bond between the two main characters of the saga. I know that Obi-Wan is portrayed being more obedient and not rebellious like Qui-Gon, but wouldn't it be ironic if defending Anakin's right to become a Jedi is the only time when he defies the Council? Then his trust in Anakin in Episode III becomes even more significant: Anakin is his protege, he doesn't believe the boy he's basically raised can betray him and everyone else.

Also, while the concept of the Master being killed in front of the apprentice is in both movies there is a fundamental writing difference. In Ep4, Luke was the protagonist. Ben was the support, the reflection. So the story follows the reaction of the main character, the protagonist, to this death and it drives him to achieve his objective. This is traditional storytelling narrative.

Although events are similar in Ep1, in terms of storytelling it is very different as it is Qui-Gon who is the protagonist of the story. Obi-Wan is the support. Killing the protagonist is an entirely different thing and can work really well, bearing in mind that his death would now drive Obi-Wan to train Anakin - fulfilling the protagonist's objective through his death. This works well. The problem with this is that Ep2 now has to shift protagonists. We don't get the luxury of just continuing the story as happens in ESB (where all of the assigned roles remain the same). The result is that Ep2 is disconnected and the roles are not as clear as they would ordinarily be in a movie.

So while events seem to be the same, the effect on the story is very different.

Anyone who at this point, after the viewing of ROTS, doesn't understand why we met Anakin as an uncorrupted 9 year old doesn't deserve to post. You're clearly missing out on what Lucas is trying to do.

I was banned from TFN 5 years ago. And I do understand what Lucas tried to do, it just didn't work for me.

Isn't it difficult to receive a ban from TFN?

I hate when fans think that their ideas could somehow possibly be better than Lucas. I'm not saying we have to blindly accept everything GL throws at us, we should judge and analyze these films, but we shouldn't put our own predisposed ideas of what should occur on them. I guarantee you don't know how to write a good movie, so why do you think that your ideas of starting the trilogy off with an older Anakin, during the Clone Wars, have any merit?

Whether or not you think GL did a good job handling Anakin's turn is one thing, but it's stupid not to like it b/c of preconceived ideas of what should have happened. These films are the way they are, judge them as you see them. Not as how you wished to see them.

I like you're line of thinking here. I, too, believe Lucas will go back and bring the OT more inline with the PT.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to just make the PT in line with the OT rather than fuck with masterful work? Lucas is stupid.

There's no way to explain your way around that one Georgie. Maybe if Liea had looked at her mother longer than Luke it may have been a tad bit believable... What's the bet Lucas removes the line "... your real mother?" and makes that exchange completely pointless?

There had been inconsistencies in the OT even before PT, expecially in ANH. We just have to live with it.

Does Labyrinth of Evil ring a bell? I mean did you really expect to figure everything out just by watching movies?

LOL I wouldn't mind for more info on the prophecy of the Chosen one and balance of the Force. It seems kinda important but no one bothers to explain it.

An accident maybe..but the Gungans and Naboo achieved more by working together than they could have done on their own. Why look elsewhere when the symbiotic relationship is one of the major themes of this movie?



Hey it did work for 20 years or so, but each time a prequel has come out people have been discussing the force ghost thing. Even between the movies it has been a hot topic of discussion. People were always curious about it. Sure we don't need a full on explanation, but what Lucas has presented has both fed and satisfied my curiosity. I'm glad he did it gradually by establishing the character of Qui Gon in TPM, having the very brief part in Episode II, and then the revelation in Episode III.

There are also plenty of people who want to know the back story before TPM so apparently GL didn't go far back enough for some. The key point is that he wanted to show the story arc of Anakin Skywallker; showing how a kid with no real malice can become twisted and later redeem himself.

I can totally understand why George Lucas can now stand back and say that he is very happy with the way the whole thing has worked out. It's no skin off my nose if you don't like it.

As for the question about Leia remembering her mother I think GL left the conversation sufficiently vague in Return of the Jedi to allow various interpretations of why Leia can remember and Luke can't. The number of explanations is pretty much limitless, but what is more important is that GL is telling the story, and he says that for some reason Leia can remember these images and feelings...not that she has a photo album and a whole load of memories of childhood.

Besides, the kindness and sadness that Leia talks of could well be things that she felt unwittingly through the force. If Padme thought there was only one baby (a girl) then she could well have felt a stronger bond with this one baby, which was reciprocated in Leia's sense of her mothers existence. Luke may well have simply been less aware.

You're pathetic.

When it comes down to it, it's a fucking movie that you're hissy fitting over. Things being left vague or explained by unintentional means should make no difference. So if he needs to make an adjustment to make things flow better, who the fuck cares? It's his story he's streamlining for better or for worse.

I usually wouldn't reply and leave as is, but with every post of yours I read, I just feel the need to tell you how much of a waste of cum you were.

I don't care as long as Vader/Luke's scenes stay intact. Actually, the less I see of that scene the better. The writing is off is Carrie Fischer is no better than Portman in AOTC. Like mother like daughter I guess.

Actually, that entire scene in Return of the Jedi is one of my favorites in the whole saga, along with when Luke is asking Ben about his father in A New Hope. I think Lucas initially intended Padme to live beyond the birth of the twins and go with Leia to Alderaan. Whatever it's a shame that some people don't buy into the story as it is now. This doesn't need to be an inconsistency if you don't want it to be. You can reason that Leia could have felt her mothers emotions.

Frankly, the robot that announces something like "She is dieing but we don't know why" is far more irritating than any other quibbles in ROTS. I felt like Lucas was pretty much saying "Padme is going to die but I don't know why".

I've always thought the reason she believed her mother died when she was young is because her other mom (Bail's wife) died when she was young, so she thought that was her actual mom. That's the excuse I use, at least.

Really? I thought it had to be Padme. I mean Luke emphasizes "your real mother", and Leia describes her as kind but sad. Fits the bill...presuming Leia knows she is adopted that is.

Well Luke seems to know... somehow...

Maybe Luke just jumped the gun on assuming that Leia knew she was adopted. Like they let him in on the secret… and the “real mother” thing just didn’t sink in with her. She DID look a little blank. Or maybe it was all the coke she was doing…

I’ll bet she would’ve remembered just about anything you wanted around that time…

Lucas can't write for shit. If the OT is like the Godfather, the PT could have been Godfather 2. Instead, Lucas wrote Wiseguys starring Joe Piscopo.

I'm w JimDangle. It was the coke.


If you actually give a shit that Leia remembers Padme then you have no life.

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My report card of ROTS not that anyone cares, but simply for squeaks and gigs:

DIALOGUE:
B
There were a few examples of classic Lucas clunky dialogue. "He says you're under a lot of stress" and a few others are pretty bad. But, by and large, the dialogue was quite effective. The average person doesn't really know what good dialogue is, and assumes that it means witty one liners. Sure, those are fun, but as long as the dialogue is both realistic sounding and true to character, it is good. Lucas has never had a problem with the latter, only the former, and for the most part, the dialogue in ROTS achieves adequacy in both. And at times, the dialogue excels. There are many quotables, and the emotional scenes are very, very powerful. To the point where I almost am certain Lucas received help writing the screenplay.

ACTING:
A-
Not sure how people could say this has bad acting. In my mind, unquestionably the best ensemble of the saga. No doubt. Ewan and Ian give performances that are only rivaled by Harrison Ford. Ewan completely redefines Obi Wan for me, giving it an amazing depth. Ian is remarkable. Natalie and Hayden are both effective. Natalie, for the first time in the trilogy, really looks comfortable as Padme. She was adequate in EI and EII for the most part, but only in ROTS does she really bring life to the character. Hayden was quite good, really felt he had a lot of soul and made Anakin's turn believable and understandable.

MUSIC:
A-
I'd give Williams an A+, but unfortunately, there was some ill advised reuse of AOTC music in there. If you are going to reuse music, reuse music that is appropriate for fucks sake. Twice they play the arena music, and in the instance of Anakin leading the troopers into the Temple, it's totally inappropriate. They should've played the Order 66 music at that moment, it would've been powerful and moving, and underscored what Anakin is going through. This is the weakest moment in the film thanks to some crappy ass music editing that has been prevalent throughout the PT. That aside, the rest of the film's music was amazing. JW comes through as usual. A lot of subtle, moving pieces. The music in the scene btwn Obi Wan and Padme is among my favorite in the film. Anything in the last half hour is as moving and powerful as anything he has scored in his career.

STRUCTURE:
A+
Finally, Lucas really nailed this. Story comes first. Everything else is bullshit. AOTC and TPM both dilly-dallied a little bit. ROTS is totally focused. We learn Padme's preggers, Anakin has a dream, and bam, the story unfolds in a logical manner. The dialogue scenes are not expository, they move the plot along.

EDITING:
A
I don't expect crappy ass movie critics who are only concerned with acting to understand this, but Lucas uses editing to tell the story. He uses montage in the Soviet sense of using juxtaposition to give images meaning. It's a lot more powerful than say LOTR - Peter Jackson style filmmaking which is more theatrical, however, American culture is trained only to recognize the theatrical nowadays. Lucas does some powerful things with editing and cross cutting. Most notably, the death of Padme + birth of twins versus death of Anakin + birth of Vader. The Anakin and Padme staring out the window scene is probably the most important scene in the film, and without it, I wouldn't have bought Anakin's decision to go and side with Palpy. There are many more instances, I'm going to have to see it again to really remember them all, but GL really came through in this category.

STORY:
A
Vader's turn to the dark side was far better than I could've ever imagined. I was always worried it was going to revolve anger and hatred like in ROTJ, but that's not very believable or interesting. This was the area I was most worried about for ROTS, I was really afraid it would mirror the Emperor's seduction of Luke in ROTJ, which frankly, was not convincing. The point of the PT is how a good person turns bad, so revolving the turn around love rather than rage was the best decision GL has made in the Star Wars universe, IMO. Like I said above, the turn really doesn't work without that scene of Anakin crying, staring out the temple. I don't know if that was in the original script, it's scary to think it's not, b/c w/o it, I don't think the film works. The entire story banks on that one minute scene, and it works beautifully b/c Lucas tells it visually, rather than, not to harp on Peter Jackson who I do in fact like, with dramatic explicit dialogue.

CINEMATOGRAPHY:
A+
So many beautiful shots in this film, and the lighting is really expressive. Some scenes that come to mind - the reuniting of Padme and Anakin, Anakin in Yoda's office, Anakin and Padme at sunset...there are just so many examples of lighting that is risky and hard to achieve, but so worth the risk. Again, Lucas uses images to convey emotion. I was really impressed with the look of the movie, I kept forgetting it was shot on video (with a few exceptions where it really just does not look like film at all, can't think of them off the top of my head). The cinematography has gotten better with each episode, and I would be really disappointed if ROTS didn't get a nomination and win for this category. I'm not sure if the fact that it was shot on video makes it ineligble for this category or not, but its quite deserving of this award.

FX
A-
The effects were amazing the vast majority of the time, but I still can't get over why you have CG clones when you don't need them.

ROTS to me, really is Lucas crowning achievement. It's unquestionably his best filmmaking so far, and easily the most powerful. Ultimately, its a moving, human drama. The film really has a soul. I'm pretty confident it is the best Star Wars movie ever.

That's pretty awesome, Manny. I'm with ya. I saw the movie again last night, and the impact was still there.

The balcony scene was shot after the initial filming, and I think Natalie looks like a totally different person. She's skinner, or just more grown up, or something. Even on my first viewing, without knowing it was a pick-up scene, I saw her and was like, what the fuck?

It really stands out to me for some reason. I've never really noticed anything that glaring in the other prequals. Doesn't bother me really, but it is very noticable.

EDIT: Right on Manny, my thoughts exactly.

I'm with you. I don't understand why people who don't have a problem with Luke's almost going to the Dark Side in ROTJ complain that Anakin's turn is "rushed" or "unbelievable". It's there on screen.

Manny;

I agree with you on every point. Well written. And yes, the window-looking scene is exceptional. That scene is worth the ticket price alone. It IS a perfect caption of that desolate feeling surrounding all three prequels. The feeling of inevitability and creeping sense of destruction leading towards the final moments in ROTS.

It's fucking breathtaking. I bow to the guy in sneekers and silver hair, and wipe a tear from my eye. My life is so intricately linked with these films through the originals in a way that is ungraspable. THAT scene, and THAT music – when a desperate boy and girl connect and dissconnect at the same time – so explicitly manifest feelings of life in general, and in the past and future, that I can't put words to it.

Oh, right, now I remember GL talking about this scene in the Making Of book and how she did look older. It's her eyes, they've aged, you can really tell a difference. Either that or she's just really really tired. But I agree, her face is noticeably different in that shot. It works tho. Makes her look more stressed.





For claiming not to be able to put words on it, you managed to put it into words pretty well!



I think a lot of people don't understand that Anakin isn't really Vader until the suit is put on. There is still a duality you can see in Hayden's face quite clearly in two places: first, when he is about to kill the younglins, second, when he has just slaughtered the separatists (and is crying). I'd say the turn is a little subtler then some might have been anticipating in the sense that when we see Vader bow before the Emperor for the first time and pledge allegiance, there is still good in him. But by the time he meets Padme on the landing platform and offers to rule the galaxy with her, his dark deeds and use of the dark side have turned him over. "Once you start down that dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." That's what it is, but maybe some people missed it b/c we do not explicitly receive a line like that. Vader's metamorphis from man who has made a pact with the devil into the devil himself is told largely through images and is implicit.

EDIT: Of course, Obi Wan does say something like "you did that yourself with your greed and lust for power." And Yoda does say "gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader." So its definitely there.

I definitely agree. There was SO MUCH in the movie to support Anakin's turn to the dark side. That was what the whole beginnning half was really about. "Palpatine: 'I suspect the Jedi are trying to overthrow the Republic.'" Even from that alone, how much more do people need?

My only problem with the movie was the Jedi temple massacre and security recordings part. Only 4 seconds were shown for the entire Jedi temple massacre before Anakin killed the younglings. That's it.

And the security recordings should've been extended when Obi-Wan finds out about the revelation of Anakin being Vader. I wanted to see more of Nick Gillard.

IMO, Lucas should've shown more Jedi characters before they died. He only focused on the main or supporting characters in this pivotal movie. There's a whole entire galaxy out there. Why not show some of it, ya' know?

I give the movie a 97/100. -2 points because of that. It could never be 100 because Hayden and Portman don't have any good chemistry or any real conviction. So -1 on that.

What do you think the Clone Wars montage was for?

What, did you wan't him to spend 10 minutes showing 100 different Jedi die? I mean, comon. You see 4 known Jedi killed across the galaxy, that should be enough. An extended scene would drag, and so would more shots of the temple slaughter. You're just looking for more eye candy in a film full of it. The temple slaughter should be a scene of tragedy, not an action piece.

The security recording was abrupt. I would've preferred to see ObiWan watch in pain a little longer.

The 4 seconds that were shown were really good. But I felt that it could've been extended.

I didn't want any more eye candy or action per se. The movie had tons of it. The action in the temple scene could've been made tragic if it were extended. Which ever way George would've wanted it.

4 seconds just didn't do it for me. Maybe about 20 would've been about right with only music and no dialogue. Just like the Order 66 scene.

The book did that scene really well. Obiwan fell to the ground writhing in pain. Yoda had to slap Obiwan in the chest with his cane for Obiwan to regain composure. In the film, Obiwan seemed a bit too errrrrrrrr passive when first discovering Anakins turn.

One thing that is not clear to me in the film. When/how to Yoda and Obiwan know/realise that Palpatine IS the Sith Lord?
I have watched it twice and that is STILL not clear to me.

Bail tells them about the "Jedi Rebellion". Yoda already felt a great disturbance in the force after Mace died.

It shouldn't be too difficult for them to put two and two together. Hell, they might not even be completely sure Palpatine is Sidious until they watch the security footage.

It would seem rather unlikely to me that Mace and his posse would have made the journey without 'radioing in' so to speak.

Has anyone asked a 6-11 year old child yet what they think of the movie? That should be the final yeayh or niegh on wether this movie did the job. Dont get to involved peeps, go back and do this with the original trilogy and you will be surprised on what you come up with. Its a MOVIE!!!!! FICTION!!!! Great story I have to admit but I get mad at all this becuase it takes all the fun out of why it ws created to begin with. Enjoy it and understand there are no rules to fiction so there or not plot holes and all of the movies come together perfectly.

Just to refer back to an older discussion about Palpatine knowing the power:

When he is getting fried by Mace, Palpatine states to Anakin "I know the power to save the ones you care for."

Then, he tells Anakin he doesn't really know...ho hum.

A couple of my friends actually had a problem with this duality: if he's not a total monster yet, why does he kill the children? Or why does he do it himself instead ofletting the clones deal with it. Some people on the boards even claim that it makes Vader unredeemable in their eyes.

Didn't Mace confer with Yoda about arresting Palpatine at some point not in the film?

It seems to me he says "I have the power...". But the important thing is he uses the word "power" throughout the movie sometimes meaning by it the ability to "cheat death" and sometimes the power of the Dark Side as in "Know the power of the Dark Side. Power to save Padme."

I think when Mace tells them that the dark side shrouds the Chancellor in the holo meeting with Ki and Aayla. But really, no one ever tells them. There really should be a scene where the council decide to arrest the Chancellor...

To me, the only one who can give the order to make the clones kill all jedi is Palpatine, so when later they saw the hologram where Sidious is with Anakin, Yoda and Obi-wan knew that Palpatine was the sith lord....

That's how I understood that...

Well, Mace and his companions were already going to see the Chacellor, so I guess after talking with Anakin, Mace thought something like "No point wasting our time and postponing it to inform others and deliberate about the obvious, when we already spend hours walking through the chambers of the Jedi Temple to get to the hangar. I'll just tell Kit and those other two with hard two memorize names about the small change of plans on our way to the Senate and that's it."

As for Yoda and Obi-Wan, I'm not sure about Yoda but it seemed to me he felt Anakin's turn through the Force and imedietly the reasons behind Palpatine's earlier actions became apparent to him. Obi-Wan was clueless until he peaked into the security recordings.

What gets me is how both Yoda and Obi Wan call Palpatine 'The Emperor' in that security recordings scene when only seconds ago and in another building Palpatine declares himself Emperor...

That scene was not great anyway in my opinion.

Aren't sessions of the Senate filmed by those little cam droids? Maybe they watched a broadcast of it or something or I would imagine they'd want Bail to keep them appraised of what the hell was going on, so he contacted them.

I think the thing that makes that stick out the most is that, after the Yoda/Obi scene, he's referred to as Chancellor again for the rest of the film. I suppose that could've happened because of reorganizing scenes in editing.