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Which is the better computer?
Apple iMac / PowerMac 56%  56%  [ 25 ]
Dell Dimension 18%  18%  [ 8 ]
other 27%  27%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 45
Post Posted: February 24th 2005 12:44 am
 

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Tony Montana wrote:
Any suggestions on which computer would be better for the price?


I'm probably biased (I've never used anything but Macs), but I sincerely believe that Microsoft will be out of the OS business within ten years. Unless they're calling it "Winux" at that point.


Post Posted: February 24th 2005 12:59 am
 
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*Self proclaimed Mac-Evangelist*

Go with iMac, awesome hardware coupled with amazing software. G5 iMacs are just so fucking sweet. The GUI is great (might take some getting used to, because you use MS XP most of the time), oh yeah that the iMac is as big as the monitor for the Dell. Apple has great customer support, and the Mac community is just an amazing one. You can add Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, more RAM, and larger HD. And the Design is PURE sex. :mrgreen:

Okay now that my sales pitch is over...

If you want to play games on a Mac don't think you are going to see alot of them. But when they do come over they are just as good as their PC counter-parts.

Switched quite a few already, converted one today in fact.


Tony Montana wrote:
I see the one major problem will be with on-line software. Most applications are windows-based.


Most software is ported to the Mac, P2P clients, Instant Messengers, and the like are easyly found.

If there is something in particular you are concerned about, say being able to use your webcam on MSN with your Mac, I can help. (You can't on MSN but iChat, an Apple designed AIM client, has the best video conferencing, it is what LFL uses for their Video Conferences)


Post Posted: February 24th 2005 1:23 am
 
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Tony Montana wrote:
How is that wireless keyboard and mouse and how often do you have to charge it?


2 AAs, and don't use that shit mouse Apple bundles with the computer, or any Apple mouse for that matter. I have a MS Wireless InteliMouse Explorer 2.0 that works wonders. Apple Keyboard is pretty sweet so you don't need to replace it.


Tony Montana wrote:
I don't use the webcam much, but I'm glad to hear P2P clients are available. What about programs like NERO, Norton Anti-Virus, and Spy Sweeper?


Nero = Roxio Toast 6, but you get basic burning within the OS. Norton is virtual useless, unless you want to use the disk recovery software, which is handy, but I don't actually own a copy, I took my HD to school and got a Mac IT guy to do that.

No spyware for the Mac, virtually no viruses. Security updates from Apple come every 2-3 weeks.


Post Posted: February 24th 2005 6:35 am
 

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To my knowledge there's nothing exactly like DVD Shrink for the Mac, but there's DVDBackup (which is freeware) to decrypt and copy files, and Roxio's Popcorn, which will shrink DVD rips so that they'll fit on a standard 4.7 GB disc.


Post Posted: February 24th 2005 7:38 am
 
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Ahh kit is a mac guy too. Hey there mac buddy.

As long as your not a hardcore pc gamer I would totally recommend a Mac. I use both. I mainly use my PC as my gaming rig. I use my Powerbook for just about everything else. You can get office on mac. Instead of Outlook the email program is called Entourage. Apple also ships there own mail program (called Mail actually) which is pretty good. You get Firefox or Safari. Kit already mentioned Toast 6 which is comparable to Nero. There are a few dvd ripping programs. Not as many as on the PC but you can definately do what you need to get done.

Also OS X > Windows any day


Post Posted: February 24th 2005 7:41 am
 
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Ayatollah Krispies wrote:
To my knowledge there's nothing exactly like DVD Shrink for the Mac, but there's DVDBackup (which is freeware) to decrypt and copy files, and Roxio's Popcorn, which will shrink DVD rips so that they'll fit on a standard 4.7 GB disc.


Well there is DVD Backup, and Mactheripper. To compress the movie you can use DVD2OneX which you have to buy, or you can get DVDRemaster which is free and does a good job. (I think better than DVD2One.


Post Posted: February 24th 2005 5:19 pm
 

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If you like a stylish, well-thought, everyday UI, go with Mac OS X. It wins, hands down, as the place you'd like to spend your computer time.

But now we'll just get bashed for being "mac zealots" ...

EDIT: I ditched my Windows boxen a year and a half ago and now I have eight Apple computers - does that make me biased?


Post Posted: February 25th 2005 5:36 pm
 

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I install Dells all day for a living. I don't work for them but my company orders them for a reason. They're generally fucking good quality. (TFT technology still doesn't come near CRT though).

Buy a Mac if you despise Microsoft for no other reason other then they are who they are. If you hate the GUI then go get a Stardock product to work with Windows.


Post Posted: February 26th 2005 12:30 pm
 
Co-host of SWD • hillaripus

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that sounds expensive :o you will be able to play PC games really well.


Post Posted: February 28th 2005 11:50 pm
 

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You'll like the imac. For someone that doesn't play games, the GeForce FX 5200 will do just fine. Hope you enjoy OS X. It's one of the best OS's I've ever used.


Post Posted: March 1st 2005 12:39 am
 

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does apple make any computer for gamers?


Post Posted: March 1st 2005 12:56 am
 

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voted other for alienware :weed:


Post Posted: March 1st 2005 1:12 am
 
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bacta wrote:
voted other for alienware :weed:


alienware are over expensive tripe.


Post Posted: March 1st 2005 5:31 am
 

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Nothing beats a custom PC.
Pre-packaged computers are wishy washy, specs usually aren't balanced. Except for Macs, but unless you're a graphic designer or a video editor, Macs are kinda limited IMO.


Post Posted: March 1st 2005 9:44 am
 
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DKR1138 wrote:
macs are good for editing and photoshop, but tend to get a bit restrictive in other areas...


other than gaming ? what areas ?


Post Posted: March 1st 2005 5:32 pm
 
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DKR1138 wrote:
ive been told there a total sheit fest for as you already said gaming... and that spreads onto anything that graphics heavy, designing... modeling... its ok for the regular chores, but the MAC word packages ive been told aren't as well thought out as Microsofts... and not to mention MSWord/Office is the most excepted knowledge base for jobs... thats all I can think about at the moment, im sure theres more...


USA Today:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/techreview ... 2004_x.htm

PC Magazine:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1595986,00.asp

Both positive, I have ONLY heard positive things about Office on the Mac. I can honestly say it is a solid app, so would say better than the PC version, but I haven't used that one much lately to be able to comment on it.


http://www.mac-sucks.com/ is not a reliable source :lol:

bashers refuted :)
http://www.mlagazine.com/modules.php?op ... =0&thold=0

Also other Mac vs PC sutff:
http://www.mlagazine.com/modules.php?op ... =&topic=15


Post Posted: March 2nd 2005 5:17 am
 
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Tony Montana wrote:
What's funny is that my friends and I were all hardcore PCers (all software/electrical engineering guys too) and we've been slowly falling into the Mac craze. If this was 3 years ago, I would have totally trashed the Macs, but the I've recently opened my eyes.


Same thing happened to me and my engineer friends. We were all hardcore PC guys, and still are (for gaming), but we drool over G5s and Powerbooks now, though we know few of us will ever own one (too cost prohibitive). I'd live a mac mini, but upgrading it to decent spec more than doubles the price :(


Post Posted: March 2nd 2005 12:18 pm
 

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DKR1138 wrote:
its ok for the regular chores, but the MAC word packages ive been told aren't as well thought out as Microsofts... and not to mention MSWord/Office is the most excepted knowledge base for jobs... thats all I can think about at the moment, im sure theres more...


WTF? Dude, you know that "Office" (Word + Excel) was first produced for the Macintosh? And that Microsoft still makes MS Office (Word + Excel + Powerpoint + Entourage) for Mac? The level of disinformation you possess is amazing.

And while it's true there's really not much a Macintosh can do that a no-name PC (running Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, whathaveyou) can't, it's the ease of use and integration that appeal to many people. I still challenge people that spout about a Macintosh's weak points to use a modern Mac running OS X for a week and then make compaints. At least then their opinions would be founded on some sort of working knowledge.

BTW - One of my pet peeves is people that say MAC, like it's an abbreviation. It's not. It's short for Macintosh. When you type MAC, it's an acronym that refers to Media Access Control (as in: a MAC Address). Or perhaps you were talking about MAC cosmetics?


Post Posted: March 21st 2005 10:28 am
 

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But not really as cool with a G5 iMac on it.

Image[/quote]

I pretty sure the Extreme can handle more clients on it's DHCP.

The Express can pipe music out of an 1/8" phono jack to your stereo or powered speakers. I use this feature all the time. There's also a piece of software from Rogue Amoeba called "AirFoil" that will allow you to stream any other audio from your Mac through the Airport Express.

Both hava DHCP server and provide a wan gateway. Both have a USB port for accomodating a shared network printer.


Yeah, it's rumored that Tiger is out next month, but I wouldn't delay a computer purchase longer than next month for it. Don't hold your breath on a 2ghz iMac by April, maybe by fall, but I'd doubt next month.


Post Posted: March 21st 2005 11:57 am
 
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mcdermd wrote:
Yeah, it's rumored that Tiger is out next month, but I wouldn't delay a computer purchase longer than next month for it. Don't hold your breath on a 2ghz iMac by April, maybe by fall, but I'd doubt next month.


I would on the other hand... I was on the loosing end of this kind of thing wheni bought my iBook :(


Post Posted: March 21st 2005 1:41 pm
 

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There's always something new coming out around the corner, often being delayed. Prices are always dropping, so its a temptation to wait a little while longer..

At some point you have to bite the bullet and make your purchase.


Post Posted: March 21st 2005 7:06 pm
 

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Check the "Special Deals" page - factory refurb G5 iMacs will cost you $1099 & up. Exact same warranty as "new" products.


Post Posted: March 21st 2005 11:53 pm
 
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I think it just understood why the express is so great :)

I have to get one now :p


Post Posted: March 22nd 2005 12:35 pm
 

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Yeah, the Express is awesome. I use it to do WDS and audio streaming. It's great for parties as someone can take the laptop and select what to play from the living room, kitchen, back yard, etc. Works well. I'm thinking of getting a second one for the bedroom stereo in the basement.

It's also great if you have to travel. Hook it to the hotel LAN, then roam wireless around the room with the laptop.

BTW to anyone else, yes it works with Mac & PC.


Post Posted: March 24th 2005 4:16 pm
 

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Tony Montana wrote:
I also decided not to buy the base station and airport card and instead went with a D-link wireless router that connects at 108 Mbs. It was only 50 bucks.


Passing on the basestation I can understand, but why not grab the Airport card? It's small, fairly cheap and all internal. Are you connecting it with ethernet instead? Please don't tell me you plan on using a USB 802.11B dongle.

BTW, there is none of the "up to" 108 megabit wireless hackery for Apple, you're stuck with the standard 802.11G 54 megabit for wireless (aka "Airport Extreme" in Apple's little world).


Post Posted: March 24th 2005 7:30 pm
 

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Ah, it's all clear to me now.

Eh, what do retail sales guys know about release dates? I still say an announcement on Apple's b-day come the 1st. I've never heard of Apple giving a discount on new software because you bough the old before the new was out. Usually just tough shit (never heard of MS, Adobe or anyone else doing it either). But, Tiger's only $129. Less with a student discount. In addition Amazon has a $35 mail-in rebate for it already. I'm just gonna spring for the $199 5-license "Family" pack to update all my machines.


Post Posted: March 25th 2005 12:26 am
 

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Hey, I have been known to make mistakes ... from time to time ... ;-)


Post Posted: March 25th 2005 3:31 am
 
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Tony Montana wrote:
I read somewhere (it could be bogus) that if new software is released within a 90 day purchase of a new mac, a huge discount could be applied for purchase of that new software. Somebody on the Macrumors forums claimed they got the latest OS X for only 29.99 because they bought their Mac with an older version a month earlier.


They gave my dad Mac OSX, because of that.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 12:14 am
 
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Tony Montana wrote:
QUESTION: Is it safe to keep pirated stuff in the iTunes folder? Are there better mac-compatible players to download?


Yes. No.

iTunes is the best Jukebox ever, it may not be perfect on the PC. iTunes was made for the Mac, it has never crashed on me, even in OS 9.


Post Posted: March 28th 2005 12:45 pm
 

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Oh, I made it "Unexpectedly Quit" the other day - I think it freaked out when I bumped the Aiport Express out of the wall. Plugged the AE back in and fired iTunes back up and everything was hunky dory.

Tony, look, Apple isn't MS. You can even fill out the OS X "registration" and not worry. Besides, if you do, it pre-fills your address book entry. iTunes isn't going to be collecting any kind of information as to what's in your library or any of that kind of BS. Besides, how would they know if you ripped it from CD or downloaded it from the net?

Realplayer is the only one that I know of that collects "usage statistics" and sends them home to the mothership.


Post Posted: March 29th 2005 12:57 pm
 

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And it's amazing that within two minutes of unpaking it, you're on the web and using your computer, eh?


Post Posted: March 31st 2005 11:38 am
 
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I voted for Apple since they tend to operate applications much better than PC.

I have a Dell, and I use it for mainly gaming and internet.


Gaming on Apple sucks, because the coding is vastly different and very difficult to convert, than PC.


Post Posted: March 31st 2005 11:50 am
 

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Wow. I guess that you must be a game programmer to have such 1337 knowledge about the differences between programming games for Macs and PC's.


Post Posted: March 31st 2005 12:04 pm
 
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I meant that the programming language for Mac is different than PC. The language for PC is easier to use, when creating games. I took a programming course, and my instructor told me than the reason why PC churn out new games faster than Mac, is because the PC language is pretty much universal.


Post Posted: March 31st 2005 3:43 pm
 

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:lol: yeah, okay. Dude, 99.9% of the programming is the same. The market segment for Macintosh games is smaller and usually doesn't add enough profit to warrant a company to code a cocoa implementation.

Remember - those who can't teach.


Post Posted: March 31st 2005 5:16 pm
 
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I stand corrected, bro.

I'm new here, so I don't want to make enemies. I'll leave that to the experts, and I'm sure ain't one.


Post Posted: April 12th 2005 10:00 am
 

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No free upgrade for Tony:

Apple to Ship Mac OS X “Tiger” on April 29
More Than 200 New Features & Innovations

CUPERTINO, California—April 12, 2005—Apple® today announced that Mac OS® X version 10.4 “Tiger” will go on sale Friday, April 29, beginning at 6:00 p.m. during special events at Apple’s retail stores and Apple Authorized Resellers. Tiger has more than 200 new features and innovations including Spotlight™, a revolutionary desktop search technology that lets users instantly find anything stored on their Mac®, including documents, emails, contacts and images; and Dashboard, a new way to instantly access important information like weather forecasts and stock quotes, using a dazzling new class of applications called widgets.

“Mac OS X Tiger is the most innovative and secure desktop operating system ever created,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “Tiger’s groundbreaking new features like Spotlight and Dashboard will change the way people use their computers, and drive our competitors nuts trying to copy them.”

Spotlight is Apple’s new lightning fast way for users to find virtually anything stored on their Mac. Much like users can instantly find songs in iTunes® by name, artist or album, Spotlight searches the contents inside documents and information about those documents, or metadata, to find just about anything—emails, contacts, appointments, images, PDFs, and almost any type of document, including Microsoft Office documents—then automatically organizes and instantly displays the results. Because Spotlight technology is built right into the core of the operating system, it automatically updates results instantly whenever files change and enables developers to incorporate Spotlight technology into their applications. Apple has incorporated Spotlight search technology into several Tiger applications including Mail, Address Book, Finder and System Preferences, and several third party developers are expected to introduce applications with Spotlight search technology in the coming months.

Dashboard is a new world of beautiful accessory applications called widgets that appear instantly to give users immediate access to information like stock quotes, weather forecasts, airline flight tracking, unit of measure, currency conversions and a phone book. With a single click a user’s favorite Dashboard widgets instantly appear with up to the second information; with another click they’re instantly gone and the user is right back to where they left off. Tiger ships with 14 widgets, and because Dashboard is based on standard web technologies such as HTML and JavaScript, it’s easy for third party developers to create new widgets that users can easily add to their Dashboards.

iChat in Tiger supports the stunning new H.264 video codec for dramatically better picture quality over the same Internet bandwidth. Users can now create audio conferences with up to 10 people and video conferences with up to four people in a 3D virtual conference room, just as if they were all seated together at a table*. In addition, contacts on a Buddy List can now see which iTunes song a user is playing and view it in the iTunes Music Store with just one click.

The new Automator workflow application lets users easily automate repetitive tasks without complex programming. Users simply select from a library of more than a hundred customizable actions and drag and drop them to create an automated workflow, specifically tailored to suit their requirements. Once created, workflows can be saved and even shared with friends and colleagues.

A full featured RSS reader is built into Safari™ to provide instant access to the most current information from leading news organizations, community web sites and even personal weblogs (blogs) directly from the browser. Multiple RSS feeds can be merged into one easy-to-read interface to create a user’s own personal news clipping service.

Other new features in Tiger include:

* QuickTime® 7, the latest version of Apple’s standards-based media player, with H.264 support, live video resizing, zero-configuration streaming and extensive surround sound;
* Mail 2, a dramatically enhanced new version of the Mac OS X built-in Mail application with a new user interface, Spotlight searching, .Mac syncing and full screen slideshow;
* iCal® 2, with support for birthday calendars, calendar groups, improved printing and Spotlight and Automator functions;
* Font Book 2, the updated font management utility included in Mac OS X that now supports libraries for installing fonts anywhere on the system or network; and
* a completely new .Mac sync preference using Xsync, a new sync engine built into Mac OS X that enables .Mac subscribers to automatically synchronize their Safari bookmarks, iCal appointments, Address Book contacts, Keychain passwords and Mail settings across multiple computers.

New core technologies and tools in Tiger make it easy for developers to create the next generation of innovative applications, including:

* native 64-bit application support to take advantage of the increased performance unleashed when accessing massive amounts of memory, while still running side-by-side with existing 32-bit applications;
* Core Image and Core Video to provide the foundation for new image and video processing applications;
* Xgrid™, Apple’s easy-to-use distributed computing software;
* improved Windows compatibility to make it even easier for Mac OS X users to access a Windows-based home directory and authenticate against Microsoft’s Active Directory;
* major advances to the open standards UNIX-based foundation including an updated state-of-the-art kernel with improved SMP scalability, 64-bit virtual memory, Access Control Lists, GCC 4.0 and modernized network services; and
* Xcode™ 2, the latest version of Apple’s powerful suite of developer tools, designed to make it even easier and faster to build innovative Mac OS X applications.

Pricing & Availability
Mac OS X version 10.4 “Tiger” will be available on April 29 beginning at 6:00 p.m. at Apple’s retail stores and through Apple Authorized Resellers for a suggested retail price of $129 (US) for a single user license. Visitors to the Apple Store® (www.apple.com) can pre-order copies of Tiger beginning today. The Mac OS X Tiger Family Pack is a single-residence, five-user license that will be available for a suggested retail price of $199 (US). Volume and maintenance pricing is available from Apple. The standard Mac OS Up-To-Date upgrade package is available to all customers who purchase a qualifying new Mac system from Apple or an Apple Authorized Reseller on or after April 12 for a shipping and handling fee of $9.95 (US). Tiger requires a minimum of 256MB of memory and is designed to run on any Macintosh computer with a PowerPC G5, G4, or G3 processor and built-in FireWire®.

* Initiating a multiway video conference requires a PowerPC G5 processor or dual 1GHz G4 processors and 384 Kbps or faster broadband Internet access. Participating in a multiway video conference requires a 1Ghz G4 or dual 800 MHz G4 processors or faster and 100 Kbps broadband Internet access.

Apple ignited the personal computer revolution in the 1970s with the Apple II and reinvented the personal computer in the 1980s with the Macintosh. Today, Apple continues to lead the industry in innovation with its award-winning desktop and notebook computers, OS X operating system, and iLife and professional applications. Apple is also spearheading the digital music revolution with its iPod portable music players and iTunes online music store.


More than likely, you can get a student discount which, historically, cuts the cost in half to $65.


Post Posted: April 12th 2005 3:00 pm
 
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I'm actually considering buying myself a Mac in the near future, so I voted Mac.

My custom rig has been great for Gaming/IE/Email, but DVD Burning, iTunes, and Photoshoping has just been a pain in the ass.

My thought would be to buy a Mac for straight Media. DVD-Burning/Play, iTunes, Movie-Editing, Capturing TV, etc... And then use the Rig for all the Internet, Email, Gaming, Torrent stuff.

I'd like the idea of getting an Apple Notebook for mobility reasons, but I don't know if the little bugger would be powerful enough to handle some of my requisites. (Capturing/Streaming Media @ 1Hr~2GB.mov formats).

I'd also like to purchase the 30-inch Cinema Display sometime.
Image

Any suggestions would be great.


Post Posted: April 12th 2005 3:13 pm
 

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Trust me, you'll end up using the mac for everything except gaming.


Post Posted: April 12th 2005 3:15 pm
 
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Got any good MacForum links?


Post Posted: April 12th 2005 4:14 pm
 

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Like for what? General? Speculation? Video?

I use the apple.com duscussions a bit for troubleshooting. Usually hit up macrumors, apple.slashdot, etc for news/speculation. lowendmac is cool for older stuff (I'm on a coupl eof their email lists for older hardware). Other than that, I dunno. Do you know any good WinForum links? :lol:


Post Posted: April 12th 2005 9:01 pm
 
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Was a bit vague huh? :monocle:

Forums for finding Apple related freeware/software I guess. Some type of community that knows about Using your Mac for Media purposes, and with links to Apple software that replaces Windows-ware. I guess an Underground community with all the Mac goods to tweak and have fun.

I've kept up with MacRumors actually just recently and have been pleasantly amused.

Not too better, but...


Post Posted: April 12th 2005 9:51 pm
 
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Hit up http://pure-mac.com/ if you need software, most is shareware/freeware.

macrumors is pretty solid for news. Also http://folklore.org/ for Mac History and also for articles http://www.mlagazine.com/


Post Posted: April 12th 2005 9:57 pm
 

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www.versiontracker.com is the end-all beat-all for OSS, shareware and freeware. Also be aware that many *nix OSS can be run under X11 on the mac.


Post Posted: April 13th 2005 2:51 pm
 
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WASR-10 wrote:
Think Secret for awesome rumors; it's the apple equivalant of this site.


They are okay, but most of the rumors fall through. :(


Post Posted: April 13th 2005 3:13 pm
 
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Thanks for all the links. :) Might drop the 3k on the Cinema monitor by the end of the month. :chewbacca:


Post Posted: April 13th 2005 3:35 pm
 

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Tony Montana wrote:
mcdermd, which macs do you have?


LOL - you don't want to know ...

The real ones that I use for real stuff are:
Image
1.25ghz 15" G4 Powerbook/1gb RAM/80gb HDD/Superdrive/OS X 10.3.8

Image
Dual 500mhz G4 Powermac/1gb RAM/80gb HDD/Superdrive/Zip100/OS X 10.3.8

Image]
400mhz G3 Powermac "Blue & White"/768mb RAM/30gb & 8gb HDD/OS X 10.3.8 & OS 9.2.2


The motley crew of others are:

Mac Plus, Mac SE, Mac Classic II, LC III, Centris 650, Performa 550, Performa 638CD (this one serves as my bedroom TV), Quadra 650, Quadra 630, Power Macintosh 6100/66AV, Power Macintosh 6100/66 DOS Compatable, Power Macintosh 7100/80AV and a loaner 400mhz G3 Powermac "Blue & White" (out on loan doing time as a server now).

They're running the gambit from System 6.0.8 to OS 9.1 (I think I have every OS in that range except OS 8.5). All of them work. All but three are networked (when I actually have them plugged in).

I also used to have a 400mhz G3 iMac DV "Indigo"/768mb RAM that I gave to a freind and a 450mhz G3 iMac DV+ "Sage"/640mb RAM that I gave to my grandma. I'll get 'em back someday.

Oh, and the bastard stepchild that I turned on about three months ago for something or another, a Frankenstein PII 300mhz/256mb RAM/WinXP SP2.

EDIT: oh, I forgot the
Image40gb iPod Photo.

- and one of these days I'll have to pick up a Newton.


Post Posted: April 13th 2005 7:07 pm
 
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mcdermd wrote:
EDIT: oh, I forgot the
Image40gb iPod Photo.

- and one of these days I'll have to pick up a Newton.

<--Has a 20GB iPod 3rdGen

I bet that Newton could kick a Nintendo DS' ass. :lol:


Post Posted: April 13th 2005 8:06 pm
 

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Posts: 532
Tony Montana wrote:
Ur crazy mcdermd. My 7-year old Compaq just blew up yesterday so I bought a $170 Pentium 3, 1 GHz Compaq off E-bay just now.


The real question is why did you spend $ on an old PC?


Post Posted: April 13th 2005 10:49 pm
 

Join: October 31st 2003 7:00 am
Posts: 532
Ah, I just don't pay for PC's. They're easy enough to get for free.


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