I always assumed that's why it was buried in the fine print of TPM, akin in importance to Captain Antilles or the Kessel Run. Unless he makes it much more explicit in ROTS, but I don't see how it's necessary to convey the theme.


That part seems clear enough - for 800 years he's operated under the strictures of the Jedi Order, assuming he was a wise man. That's a lot to unlearn.


There's a lot about that I don't get. Then again it never held up to scrutiny when ROTJ first came out, either, and we all accepted it and moved on.


I always kind of saw him as a hippie, the bearded rebel who talks trash and weird mysticism to his authority figures. You just know he had a sitar in his room at the temple.


Qui-Gon Jinn = Martin Luther

contradict much?


anyways... all this crap talk about luke being qui-gon incarnate is just fucking ridiculous... the whole direction qui-gons character is going with these spoilers is ridiculous... qui-gon might act as a hippie but its more about the drugs (for a jedi the force) rather than love for him.

Just because you know love, doesn´t mean you can use it to fix everything. From Obi-Wan´s point of view, Anakin is no longer, and Vader is an evil creature, like the Emperor. Turns out he was only half right.


Qui-Gon almost seemed to treat Anakin like a surrogat son, at least that´s what it looked like to me. Isn´t that much of a stretch to portray him as a man more loving to other people than the Jedi in general. And the reincarnation theory fits in with the more Eastern themes of the saga, but then again Force spirit is almost the same concept, so who knows....

qui-gon would have not given the child (anikan) a second thought if he hadnt the ability to get them off the planet and return such a high midi count... he sure felt something for anikan and it wasnt love... it was the force... and dont tell me now that love is the force.

I don´t think so, he´d most likely do what Obi-Wan did and continue following Dooku. The only difference I could see, would be during the confrontation. Since Dooku was his old master, he would probably try to reason with him, instead of fighting from the start. Besides, I´m sure he would have sensed she was alright at the time.

True, but as he got to know him better, he seemed to genuinely care. You don´t have to instantly treat every person you meet in your life as a family member, just to prove you´re a good person.


I never said that, only that it is one of the Force´s secrets.

ok then

I wonder if all that Padme 'force sensitive' stuff was to do with Qui-Gon? Did Qui-Gon help her survive the attacks, make her fall pregnant, meet Anakin?....interesting.

some clarification please ternian... are u saying that qui-gon alerted obi-wan and anikan to the bugs in amidalas bedroom?... etc etc... so infact your also saying that jedi dont use the force the force use them... something that has been said many times, i know.

In other words, the Rebellion wins in the PT as well, only this time it´s the more subtle rebellion of one Jedi master against the stoic orders of old.

This will most likely fly over most audiences´ heads.

I bet he has a little to do with it. It probably doesn't start out this way, but maybe after the Tusken incident, he sees that Padmé can handle Anakin in a way that maybe Obi-Wan can't because of love/compassion. He then comes back to this after they are married and um..doing what married (and single!) people do. And as a "just in case" - he makes sure there are two for Anakin to love later on as a back up instead of just one, by lowering the odds. I'm assuming Anakin is still biologically both twins' father, simply because of that whole "father/son" thing Lucas has going in the OT.

I actually am loving this spoiler and can see now even where love comes in. The Jedi never really understood the intensity of Anakin's emotions (love) for his mother and later on, Padmé. The Sith never understand the intensity of any emotion other than hate, and it generally consumes them. But Darth Vader still has that little bit of good in him that Padmé can feel because she loves him, bring on Luke. It's that part of Vader that can love and embraces his destiny as a result.

Qui-Gon is right all along, the Jedi can afford to love, they just can't let it consume them. They have to listen to the living Force. If Anakin had trusted the living Force when he had his premonition, Padmé's death may have never happened.

And in the japoor snippet, we are meant to see that there IS still good in him and we have to have faith. Which we lose until ESB. We start to see Padmé's view come up in Luke in ROTJ and we know there is really hope. The snippet will be an actual symbol of the good kid on Tatooine who did nothing "for greed". Maybe it is even given to Leia and through it (A symbol of her mother and father's love) she is able to "see" Padmé through the Force.

The only other thing I can't wait to have cleared up is whether Vader knows about Luke before ANH. I would LOVE for this to be true, and it would be the ultimate twist.

BTW, Thanks for posting all the spoilers, Tern!!!

Love is a song that never ends
Life may be swift and fleeting
Hope may die
yet Love's beautiful music
comes each day like the dawn.

Love is a song that never ends
One simple theme repeating
Like the voice
of a heavenly choir
Love's sweet music goes on...

-- Bambi

The last words spoken in RotJ:


THREEPIO
They did it!

Han looks town from the sky to Leia, a look of concern on his
face. Leia continues to look at the sky as though listening for a
silent voice.

HAN
I'm sure Luke wasn't on that thing when it
blew.

LEIA
He wasn't. I can feel it.

HAN
You love him, don't you?

Leia smiles, puzzled.

LEIA
Yes.

HAN
All right. I understand. Fine. When he comes
back, I won't get in the way.

She realizes his misunderstanding.

LEIA
Oh. No, it's not like that at all. He's my
brother.

Han is stunned by this news. She smiles, and they embrace.

Well, the last words in the original trilogy were "Celebrate the Love", before they got nuked in the revised ending for the SE's.

With Tern saying pre-SE and all his "yub-yub" comments, is he referring to the original ending song?

Lyrics and translation here

EDIT: PB Watermelon beat me to it

Hmmm, secret to the Force is that everyone is Leia's brother? I don't mean that as jokingly as it sounds. Is it simply that we are all connected, or even part of one Force entity? So something that can take advantage of people and misuse the Force, such as Sith or even arrogant Jedi, always serves to damage yourself and those around you? Like cutting off your own leg.

I never knew that there was an english translation to that song. Surely 'celebrate the fight' can't be part of the Force? So it is simply love then?

Hmm, how come Tern is spilling all this spoiler goodness over at the JC and not here at home?

Dogg.

Unconditional love: Being prepared to let go?

HAN
All right. I understand. Fine. When he comes
back, I won't get in the way.

This discussion about the force has been so sprawling, I'm not sure if this has been articulated this way, but I'll write it anyway. I think that Qui-Gon will basically tell Yoda that the Force is much simpler than any of the Jedi thought. Not any less powerful or easier to "tap into," simply that the Force cannot be codefied or concretized into a code, Jedi or Sith. Yoda, Obi-Wan, et al thought that they could manipulate the force towards the "good" but this manipulation carries with it the same consequences as Sith manipulation. For both, the end result is overconfidence and arrogance. What Yoda learns is that adherents to the force must submit to the Force, not to the Jedi code, an idea that is spelled out beautifully in TPM and the tension between Qui-Gon and the Council. And I'm pretty doubtful, however, of the Luke/Qui-Gon reincarnation thing, call it a hunch...

The Qui-Gon reincarnation makes no sense because Yoda is talking to Qui-Gon after Luke has been conceived, is talking to Qui-Gon while Luke is being born. I don't want to turn this into a biology or abortion debate, but Luke is just as much a person with a soul ten minutes before he leaves the womb as he is ten minutes after. What, he squeezes past some flesh and Qui-Gon's soul jumps into him? Nonsense. That sounds more like possession than reincarnation.



The Sith (either Darth Plagueis or Sidious) willed Anakin into being.

Qui-Gon may be the flip side, the person who willed Luke and Leia into being, or the representative of the Force that brought Anakin and Padme together in the 1st place.

Alright, good morning all.

See, I did eventually go to bed last night.

I'm happy to see that all of my words weren't wasted. As the Beatles would sing, "Love, love, love.... All you need is love."

Cod doc, I apologize for the tone I ended up taking in my post regarding your first reply to me. I was just too hot under the collar, and should've waited to cool down before writing. It won't happen again, I assure you.

And I happen to agree with your assessment of Qui-Gonn Jinn. He's the ultimate rebel choosing to work within The System, and taking his stand when he feels passionately justified. He manifests his love without being greedy, which is what allows him to still be able to act compassionately. His walking of this line is what makes him an example of a more idealistic Jedi.

Earlier in this thread, someone pointed out that I wasn't being entirely consistent with my assessment of the Jedi in regards to their lack of love and with my theory as to why the destruction of the Sith restores balance to The Force (brought about by a Jedi). This is entirely due to the inconsistent statements made about The Force, and also through the actions of the Jedi.

My first statements regarding Jedi and their lack of Love were an assessment of who they ARE. My statement on the destruction of the Sith and the resulting balance of The Force is made about the IDEAL. Frankly, the "ideal" is hard to put into words, just because of how ideas of The Force have been conveyed and demonstrated. I simply boiled it down to the sappiest conclusion I could make about what Lucas was trying to say in his almost cute and befuddling way, and tah dah, I got the ideal. Throughout the films, the Jedi are in a "fallen" state. They've lost sight of the totallity of their mission. The two Jedi who most "defy" this "fallen" state are Qui-Gonn Jinn and Luke. They are the most pristine examples of what the Order should be.

As has been readily demonstrated here by other posters, the theories espoused throughout the films aren't entirely consistent primarily because of the actions of two Jedi, Yoda and Ben. Even though they've been TOLD the truth about The Force, they still never utter a single word to Luke which makes it clear to him. That's a big inconsistency, unless it's being consistent with their CHARACTERS. They continue to train him in the Old Ways of the Jedi, "You must DESTROY Vader who killed your daddy." Then in RotJ, "Oops, we meant to say 'Vader is your daddy," but we thought it best that you didn't know that last bit." To which one has to ask, "WTF?" That's how Yoda and Ben are manifesting their new "understanding" about The Force to Luke? Their actions don't make it easier for us to understand The Force, all their actions do is demonstrate WHO they are as characters. And they're not as lofty as one would like them to be.

What makes Luke's journey so powerful is that he finds his OWN path to confront his lost father, and it's the only one to take if there's going to be any kind of redemption. This path is laid down by following his HEART. The ULTIMATE victory over evil is to cause an evil doer to change his ways, to learn how to REALLY love. It'd be like having Phi Knight go, "My god, what have I been doing to these people, who are actually working FOR me? I've not only supported a structure that abuses them within the factories, but I've even contributed resources to these people's political leaders who 'serve' them by using force to repress them! What kind of monster am I? I need to amend my ways, now! (calls secretary) Raise their wages majorly, give them full benefits, outfit the factories for safety, give them and all their family members pairs of my shoes, and fire their abusive supervisors. And look at the bottom line, I'm STILL making a huge profit! Now, how many factories can I create in my OWN country to undo the grave harm I've done there..."

See, now THAT's a victory won by Love! It's the ULTIMATE power, for it can shape men's action to SERVE people by LETTING GO of one's unnatural needs (hoarding things, power and people) rather than exploit them for one's own ends.

Sickly sweet and idealistic as it is.

Wouldn't it be GREAT if things could always work out so romanticly? :bankheadbounce2:

So, in summary, I'm just trying to make sense of the "mess" that is Star Wars. It's one movie series that philosophically has a lot of rough edges because of how its philosophy is presented, but that's part of its charm. I mean, without these rough edges, we certainly wouldn't be having these intriguing posts on this thread! To me, it's worth it!

The twist is that Qui-Gon tells him about the planet and Luke recognizes it in ESB because he visited it as Qui-Gon.

I´m reaching here, aren´t I?

Sounds just like A Christmas Carol.

Yes, it does sound a lot like "A Christmas Carol," only a lot more convulated (which is more like real life) and with swinging lightsabers to boot.

So I guess that makes the saga "better" than the Dickens' classic?




Well, at least a little bit more exciting.

If this is going where I THINK it's going: wow! But it will only work dramatically IF they pull it off in a way that STRONGLY emulates the quotes I have posted above.

The whole "QGJ rebirth of sorts" thing smacked as being hokey to me, but now they MIGHT just pull it off.

Hooooooo.

From "The Empire Strikes Back" script. Yes, I'm now getting goosebumps from this seemingly inconsequential bit of "filler" dialogue.

Oh boy!




"...something familiar..." INDEED!

I'm not saying that the "rebirth of sorts of QGJ" is a "good" thing or a "bad" thing, but it IS now at least a little bit intriguing to me.

Perhaps the saga is a cross between "A Christmas Carol" and "The Matrix" only with really cool looking lightsabers, then?

There are a LOT of revealations, that's for sure.

"Energy is neither created or destroyed, it is just transfered from one form into another."

Something to chew on.

Tastes like black licorice.

An "acquired" taste?

Try it.

I remember before I saw Empire Strikes Back and some kid in my class had the comic adaptation of the movie sitting on his desk and he showed me the panel where Vader reveals that he's Luke's father... I was kind of blown away, and wished I had waited to see it play out on the big screen.

OK, so you know what? This spoiler material and these conversations are starting to really make me want to bail on spoilers until it's released. I love surprises, and I think that these conversations are really starting to feel like this is what the big surprises are going to turn out to be... and I want to really enjoy how this plays out. In other words... I'm getting the feeling you guys started to, or have figured out the big Qui-Gon / Luke surprise.

So with that... I'm going to close my eyes on these spoilers for now and wait it out.

It's been fun guys... thanks for all the cool materials and good morning reading. Cheers!

Actually, the more I think about "the rebirth of sorts of QGJ" the more it seems to explain.

How is it that Luke is able to acquire mastery of The Force so quickly? It might help if he had a little bit of Qui-Gonn's spirit in him.

PLUS the final path he takes towards his father is so contrary to the Old Jedi advice he's getting from Yoda and Ben. I mean, look at what happened to him the first time he completely followed their advice: He had his right hand lopped off, he was completely battered and defeated. I think it's relatively safe to assume that he now had doubts... fears. Yoda's and Ben's advice was literally taking him down the path to be the next Darth Vader, and Palpatine senses this.

Their way didn't work. In RotJ, Luke's seemingly "own" path, that of pursuing a path of Love and Sacrifice just seems so completely illogical (even to his Force mentors on Dagobah), yet it sounds as if it's a path QGJ would've advocated had he been Luke's tutor.

If Qui-Gonn did put some portion of his essence in the boy, then that to me seems like a higher plane of Force existence than Yoda or Ben achieved. I'm not saying that I'm intrigued by the possibility that QGJ is totally "reincarnated" in Luke, but I do like the idea that he's there in some part, acting as a kind of "intuition" to guide Luke to a higher path of practicing The Force.

Perhaps the training QGJ deeply felt Anakin needed, and the Jedi Council rejected, was only completed and executed properly through Luke?

In some ways, I think a flaw of the Jedi Council is that there's no real room for forgiveness, which is an essential ingredient of the "Revealed Love Force." They condemn Anakin for his fear, yet in a way Luke's conviction that his father "...still has good in him...", his willingness to fall at his father's, and his father's master's hands is a form of forgiveness, of being able to accept his father, believe in him, have hope, and then even love him in spite of all the things he's done, and in spite of the possibility that his father will kill him.

THIS demonstration of Luke's is what brings Anakin to his senses, and it is THIS path which empowers him to LET GO, to LOVE, and more importantly, to TAKE ACTION for the benefit of others.

In the end, Anakin doesn't merely "Talk the talk," but he also "Walks the walk."

Qui-Gonn's defense of Anakin to the Council follows "Luke's" line of reasoning in RotJ. They're SO parallel to one another that this whole "rebirth of sorts of QGJ" makes a kind of poetic sense to me. Both men stand in defiance of what they're told to do. They're passionatley standing up to The System, and applying their hearts to situations that they're told not to.

A large part of me hopes that Luke isn't an outright reincarnation of QGJ, as that kind of strikes me as weakening Luke's journey. But I do now like the idea that some portion of QGJ's Living Force was channeled into Luke, to act as a kind of intuition for the way things should be. To follow a path of compassion that is firmly rooted in Love, and not just a path that pursues "compassion" as a kind of formality.

This seems at least acceptable to me, but then again, I haven't seen the final fruits of this plotline's pursual. I guess I'll just hold my judgement for opening day.

I'm very excited about the parallelism that may be established between RotS and RotJ.

There's SO much potential.

Again, "Wow."

He wasn't following their advice.. they wanted him to stay and continue to train, so he wouldn't be so ill-prepared to fight DV.

"There's something familiar about this place."

That's Luke sensing Yoda. Yoda was present at his birth, Yoda has been watching him his whole life, now Luke is sensing this "familiar" person. That's all it is.

Not Qui-Gon reincarnated as Luke Skywalker, which is nonsense.

"I mean, look at what happened to him the first time he completely followed their advice: He had his right hand lopped off

He wasn't following their advice.. they wanted him to stay and continue to train, so he wouldn't be so ill-prepared to fight DV."


Alright, to be more precise then, he used what training he had of theirs to fight Vader. But in RotJ they sure didn't finish his lessons off with The Force's Love Lesson. At this point, Yoda even comments that his training was complete, and Luke's assertions on Dagobah about Dear Old Dad aren't embraced. Luke essentially sets off to confront his father with the same tools he was given by Yoda and Ben in ESB. The only thing that is different are his experiences from the first encounter, and his strange conviction that there is still good in him. Something that echoes QGJ's assertions to the Jedi Council.

For Luke's first encounter against his Dad, he's brandishing the lightsaber Daddy used to slay Jedi with. The path he's on in ESB echoes the path his father took.

And then there's Luke's building of his own lightsaber. This time it's green, as was QGJ's, but he pursues a path more akin to Qui-Gonn's sensibilities in RotJ.

And I don't see Yoda and Ben encouraging "QGJ-like Love" at all in the OT films. They don't encourage Luke to connect to others, they never comment on anything that Leia and Han are doing, and in fact admonish him NOT to go rescue his friends in trouble on Cloud City because he's too new to the Jedi game. This sounds like Old School Jedi to me.

Just throwing out ideas...

I could be completely wrong about the whole thing, but it's fun to think about.

It would make sense in following GL format of repeating themes & situations that the power of love helped Luke triumph & redeem Vader in ROTJ.

Now in ROTS we will see how love affects the force & the people intertwined in it.

Well, Leia wasn't Luke's brother until the writing process of Return of the Jedi, so I try not to read too much into Yoda not interfering with Leia's love life.

I do remember, however, Yoda and Obi-Wan pleading with Luke to abandon his plans to go to Bespin to try and save his friends - even sacrifice them. Luke did not listen, and followed his heart, and walked into a trap. Vader used Luke's emotional attatchments to Leia and Han to try and capture him. That's why Vader tortures Han Solo -- not for kicks, but to cause Han pain that Luke would sense and follow.

Like father, like son.

Well, if Qui-Gon really were reincarnated as Luke, here's how the rest of that scene might turn out (italics are my additions):

"Luke winks"

Ugh... picturing that awful CG baby from the Mask 2.

*shudders*

I wonder why Qui-Gon waited so long to fill Yoda in on the details. Couldn't he have saved everyone a lot of trouble if he just appeared to everyone and explained the nature of the Force.

Or, alternatively, appear to Palpatine and do a whole Christmas Carol thing.

Dogg.

I think the whole Qui-Gon being reborn as Anakin is worse than the Palp/Sidious clone theory.

Why do people want every plot point to be some complex thing that requires even more explanation? Can it just be simple & straight forward?

I just thought the reincarnation-idea went well with the Eastern mythology already present in the series, but if it proves untrue I won´t loose any sleep over it.

Is anyone else slightly concerned about Amidala's "state of delirium"...? I'm just picturing it coming off as horribly cheesy, much like Anakin's dreams in AOTC...

"No... no... Mom! NO!"

I mean... it can be done well and believably... I just wonder whether it will actually happen.

I'm picturing something like a Jane Austen climax, with the young lady delirious as the gentlemen pace outside her door. It's going to be high melodrama no matter how you slice it.

Yeah... that's kind of what I'm afraid of. I know they're campy semi-on-purpose... but... meh... whatever. I'm sure I'll get over it.

Well if you want real cheese just watch TPM & the annoying child who portays Anakin. I could'nt tell if he was from another galaxy or down any street USA.

Good example is when Anakin brings Qui-Gon, Padme & Jar-Jar to his home to ride out the sandstorm. "Mom!...Mom!..I'm home!, look mom these are my friends mom."

Frankly I felt a child with a stutter would have come across much better.

Maybe it took QGJ 10 years of being one with the force to realize what exactly needed to be done. All in all, i have to say that ROTS is shaping up to blow TESB out of the water. Maybe george knew what he was doing after all.

* Owen knows that Vader=Anakin. You guys have got to remember that Obi-Wan is lying and manipulating Luke in his little homestead in ANH. All the lightsaber crap and Your Uncle-blah-blah crap is simply Obi-Wan subtley getting Luke off that damn planet and into action.


I'm not sure if I understand this. It seemed to me that Owen obviously knew the truth about Anakin/Vader, but he lied to Luke and told him his father "was a navigator on a spice freighter" simply because it was so un-romantic and mundane and humdrum; in other words, it wouldn't inspire Luke to do anything adventurous and therefore possibly follow in his father's footsteps. Obi-Wan didn't lie to Luke. Or am I misunderstanding?

In ANH in Ben's hut, he spits out several minutes of exposition giving Luke at least 1/2 the story, from a CPOV.

I don't see any evidence of Obi or Yoda encouraging love. And if I recall correctly, Luke grieves for exactly 2.3 nanoseconds after he sees his adoptive parents smoking like a couple of charred briskets. Then he turns to Obi and says, "Well, nothing holding me back now, let's go kick some Imperial ass!"

I'm withholding judgment on that one. A lack of inside ROTS info on the subject does not equate to Obi-Wan lying his butt off. Unless that line is specifically addressed in the negative, I'm not going to assume it's a lie unless someone reports on an actual film edit that's close to being final. Mind you, as far as I'm concerned if Anakin even makes an offhand comment about his child becoming a Jedi, Obi-Wan's statement is not a lie.

People are way too eager to label Obi-Wan a liar. Must be something cathartic about it, I guess.


When did Ben have anything but cursory interactions with Han? And when did he have any interaction at all with Leia? When did Yoda talk to anyone off Dagobah? When was romance ever more than an offhand gag for Luke? I'm not addressing whether Yoda & Obi-Wan do or don't encourage love (though I don't see it, as such) but not interfering with Luke, Leia and Han's little menage is hardly evidence of anything. Palpatine didn't interfere either, nor Admiral Akbar.

"Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" might have become crap when the final draft of Ep. 5 was OK'ed for shooting, but I don't really go in for all of the retcon crap. When George wrote Ep. 4, Luke's father was a Jedi who was killed by a younger trainee named Darth. That was the story at the time. It changed.

funniest thing ive read all morning.

Oh my God. That is hilarious. I think I need to put that in my sig... on every board on which I post.