For those who haven't seen it, an interview with Samuel L. Jackson in the most recent Star Wars Insider confirms some spoilers:

Windu "demolishes" Palpatine during their
confrontation. Then, Anakin arrives and causes the death of Windu. It's in this scene that Anakin makes his choice and becomes Vader.

Jackson speaks about the window in Palpatines office. He says that the atmosphere of the part is really cool once that
the window is broken and the wind enters.

There is a scene in the Jedi Council where Anakin is present and
declares that he is more powerful than all the members of the Council. Mace stops it cold while ordering Anakin to sit down. Both Jedi look at each other for a few seconds without speech.


The suprise was Windu "demolishing" Palpatine...All this time I thought he was faking it.

If Mace Windu has Palpatine on the ropes when Anakin intervenes it will make Anakin choice even MORE tragic. It could have been all over right there and then. But Anakin has trouble 'letting things go............'

Sam answers the question in a way that makes me think he understands what's going on. If Palpatine is faking in that scene, I think Sam would have said it.

He never does.

If anything, he continues to talk about how he had Palpatine and should have killed him, but doesn't. He says he is winning even without Anakin's help and then Skywalker makes "the choice" and Sam has the tide turn against him.

The Official Site/Hyperspace has pulled these two clips (4 and 6) down.

"Basic, motherfucka! Do you speak it!!"

How hard is it to understand?

In the words of the late Old Dirty Bastard...

":roll:"

'Shit, Goddamn, sweet jesus, motherfucker! Palpi, Ms Windu's son just whupped your ass!'

so its evidently the combo of two sith that defeats mace? wouldnt that make yoda look inferior being whooped by one???

then again, Mace seems to take 3 other Jedi with him, so maybe Palps is knackered by this and is genuinely defeated by him

but im not convinced... it makes more sense he's faking it

"What do the Tatooine slaves call a Quarter Pounder with Cheese?"

"A quarter pounder with cheese it is not?"

"They use the metric system. Its called a Royale with Cheese"

"To Tatooine before, I have not been"

"Womprat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'll never know, 'cause
even if it did I wouldn't eat the filthy motherfucker."

Here is what Sam said in the audio clip.

Samuel L. Jackson said:

"So I think my (Mace's) choice is clouded by the fact that we aren't seeing clearly. That our (Jedi's) ability to make decisions and use the Force has been disrupted in such a way that...in a better time, I would have made the right choice and I would have just killed him (Palpatine) when I had the opportunity to kill him...and not take him to justice. And that would have changed the outcome of everything, but I didn't. And things go the way they go, but that's just how it happens."

"But I'm pleased with the drama of it all and the fact that it's clear that I'm standing there, and I'm winning this battle actually...even without Anakin's help up until he steps in, and does what he does to turn the tide...and that I go out the way I do. I've been begging not to die in my sleep or get stabbed in the back by some clone. And it didn't happen, so I'm happy."

So Mace does hold his own against Palpatine....

... although I still believe that the whole kneeling down, begging for Anakin's help is all trickery (or perhaps amazing improv) on Palps part.

Exactly. Mace will probably put up a good fight, probably pisses Sidious off. But Sidious won't give it his all, and allow himself to "lose" when Anakin comes in.

While OS quotes support Sidious faking it, I kinda hope it's left up to audience interpretation.

Im pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere that mace, at least in his lightsaber fighting style, is more powerful then yoda. But with power comes lack of control, which leads to anikan losing to obiwan (it has been confirmed that anikan is more "powerful" then obiwan but loses due to lack of control).

So this would make sense, Mace may overpower Palps with the saber, but palps is more intune with the force, and able to win through the corruption of skywalker.

This point of view would allow mace to "beat" palps, but still allow yoda to just barly hold his own using both saber and force, yet not be "weaker" then mace.

Who beat who, and who is stronger/weaker then who is clearly a relative term based on a point of view. What does it mean to truely win or lose?

Mace may be second only to anikan, in brute strength, but when it comes to overall ability, its most likely Yoda, Palps, Obiwan, Anikan, Mace.

So I gues Anikan does become "The most 'powerful' of all the jedi, even master yoda"

True, but "Sidious clearly wins" == "Mace was a pussy all along"

I think Lucas is messing with SLJ not letting him in on the whole scene, to Sam it looks like he's going out with class and not like a bitch, but when the movie gets cut we'll see that Palpatine is just faking it and Mace will in fact be made his bitch in the end, and SLJ will be pissed. Thus proving once and for all that everyone is Lucas's bitch...

Or maybe I've had to many deathsticks, heh...

edit: sorry forgot to finish my thought..

It seems to me that the most dramatic way to depict Mace's duel with Palpatine is to have Palpatine supposedly "succumb" to Mace's saber skills. It just seems like a perfect setup that is just more solidly enshrouded in tragedy.

It plays out so well. Anakin would immediately jump into action once he observes that (1) the now aged and completely revealed Palpatine really is capable of extending life and (2) Jedi are willing to carry out egregious actions (assaulting an old man capable of great feats) while enforcing their own form of government, one that is devoid of any kind of Sith "blessings."

Having the scene play out this way makes Palpatine one cunning and twisted fellow. His two grand statements to Anakin regarding the "true" capabilities of the Sith and how the Jedi have a warped sense of governance and justice thus become "proven" to Anakin by the way Palpatine sets the situation up.

It's so devious that it's hard to imagine how Anakin could resist rushing to Palpatine's side.

What bothers me about this setup, however, is what I've read posted by someone else on a different post: the whole tricking of Anakin into joining the Dark Side dances too close to the line of being able to easily "sympathize" with his monstrous decisions. The vast majority of people who choose the path of Greed over Love are not individuals who have been so consciously duped into making their decisions that cause others misery. They do it because they genuinely think that they are superior to their supposed subordinates, and that they simply deserve or are "entitiled" to their greater wealth and privelage because they're "smarter" or more industrious than others, when in reality, they're simply more willing to make decisions that are inhumane towards others. Most people don't pursue these paths because they're not willing to inflict pain on others in order to advance their own cause, whatever that may be.

Is it me, or does Lucas' statement on why greed is evil bypass the most obvious way it's actually exercised by individuals the world over?

That's probably how it will work. It's not like Sidious is gonna explicitly say "I'M NOT TRYING, BITCH!"

He just isn't giving it his all, because he knows he can snare Anakin for good in this situation. Now, against Yoda...

One expository means of letting the audience know that Sidious was faking it is to have Anakin figure it out. After “What have I done!?” Anakin probably still needs a bit of justification from Sidious on his choice of allegiance, so it’s given that they’re going to have a chat. At first Anakin could be somewhat reproachful towards him along with a “you were faking it”.

there is not going to be any cheesy lines like 'you were faking it?' - the ruse will be implied by cunning facial expresions sidious makes, thats all... and after sidious totally annihilates yoda even the most dimwitted viewer will understand that sidious was holding back against mace and the crew.

A better way to understand this line of thinking, should it be the way Lucas has thought, is to read some history, especially about Hitler's rise to power, and his effects on the individual/collective psyche. What you've put above is remarkably similar to the effects (or so has been documented) on the German populus during the Thrid Reich. An example would be how the Germans kept on fighting on the eastern front against the Soviets long after it became clear they would be defeated. The Wehrmacht, and the German populus had been lead to believe that the Russians were a sub-human race. Also the way they treated the Soviet people when they invaded.

Thank you, thus far, for your input on interpreting some of the other events that will flesh out Anakin's fall to the Dark Side.

If said events do transpire, then they will illustrate the more "classic" means by which those who come into power become corrupted by it becuase of their willingness to make decisions that others won't even contemplate due to the consequences.

I also appreciate Wire's summation of the mass psyche of the German people near the end of WWII against Stalin's forces, which by that time was also a motley collection of people, slavic in nature. It's well known that the Germans envisioned a future where the Poles were going to become a personal slave force for them, so their arrogance and sense of entitlement was just completely twisted.

To me it seems as though Lucas is more focused on presenting a "big picture" of Greed, one that falls more in line with Eastern Religious and Freudian thought; that Greed and Love (Destructive and Creative) are two different sides of the same coin, with the "coin" being The Energy that's hardwired into us and gives us life.

A greatly truncated summation of this kind of philosophy is that everyone is born with an instinct for self-preservation and for reproduction. Protecting one's loved ones ensures that one's makeup ("soul" or whatever one wants to call it) will survive into another generation. The wealthier and more powerful one becomes, the greater the odds of one's own self-survival and the survival of one's loved ones. This is a description of the Love/creative energy at work.

But when one lives in a society where there are more than enough means to ensure a decent way of life for everyone in that world, these insticts become dangerous, and actually become harmful towards others outside of one's own range of direct experiences. One's will to assume power actually deprives others of the means to live a happier and healthier way of life. The lives of the "common" people become more stressful, more frustrated and one has to work harder just to ensure one's own survival and the survival of one's loved ones. The deprived nature of their lives makes them desperate for a "solution," even if it's a bad one that's given to them by their actual repressers (for example, illogically laying the blame for their discomfort on someone else because of their race or religous beliefs). This discomfort of living, instead of bringing people together against those who are actually causing them the discomfort, usually gets manipulated by the powerful to create even more fear-soaked division and weakness in their ranks.

When government sanctions such a power structure, it's ensuring that the creative energy made by the many is diverted to ensure the survival of the powerful few, and this tiny minority of "elites" then channel that once creative energy into a destructive force. And these morally repugnant acts are usually accomplished with fear, since fear is the key requirement towards turning the creative impulse into a destructive one.

When the whole idea was first introduced in Ep.II regarding Anakin's prime motivation for craving power, to "live forever/prevent death," I almost laughed, I thought it was so contrived. But in the grand scheme of things, those that seek to sustain a life of privelage while depriving others of what they're truly due unconsciously live their lives as if what they're doing is actually going to extend their names and influence forever. Somehow the creative energy that drives us all becomes bloated and twisted--greedy, and they become consumed by their quest on becoming a "god" of sorts. Yet in the end, they die like everybody else, and all the things they own, all the people of influence they know, can't save them. Worms will fatten on their "elite" flesh just as fully as eating a meaningless "commoner." And thus we all return to the earth as equals.

The tragedy is in losing sight of everyone's ultimate fate. This picture puts everything in its proper context, and it makes it more likely for people to "let go" of their own personal needs for the greater good of others, who will, in turn, take care of the individual who participates in said society. Such a cycle is creative in nature, and is the complete opposite of the destructive system.

Anakin is the complete package when it comes to explaining the "spiritual" side of greed, but he may not be the best model of illustrating of how it's actually practiced in the "real" world. Palpatine, I think, is a more concrete manifestation of the destructive power at work at the political level in the films. He perfectly embodies how fear is used as a tool to motivate masses of people into actions they otherwise would not participate in.

Padme declines Anakin's offer of the "Throne of Power" because she realizes the misery that it's going to cause others for their family to have their lives of privelage. She "lets go" so that others may live more rewarding and just lives, something that Anakin, with all the advice he's been given, cannot do.

Wow, a record long post for me. I just got caught up in it!

Till next time!

I don't know if this has been mentioned already so I will just put it here:

Samuel L. Jackson on 'Star Wars' fate

Samuel L. Jackson dies in his next huge film -- but he does it in a really cool way.

Director George Lucas assured the actor that his Jedi knight character would go out in a blaze of glory in the forthcoming "Star Wars: Episode III -- Revenge of the Sith," and the director apparently made good on his promise.

"It's rousing," Jackson told the San Francisco Chronicle in Sunday's editions. "It's a great light-saber battle with 102 moves in three big rooms."

Source: CNN

Didnt Nick G the fight choreographer say in his chat online that even though the Jedi use lightsabers, that Sidious is a master of all weapons?

He said something like " He draws you in using very few moves but you will never get the better of him."

That to me says that no matter how good Mace or Yoda are that Sidious is not a Sith to be trifled with.