I always took the talk about feeling for Anakin to have to do with the fact that when his kids are born, they would taken away from him. If they discovered he was married, he would loose his place as a Jedi, or maybe even his wife. Anakin has a lot to loose in Episode III. He ends up loosing it all really. That’s why you feel for Anakin, but it’s his own entire fault.

I think Mecha and Fatboy addressed the power issues dead on.

Also, since he never gives back his emergency powers and is the Emperor, wouldn't it be treason for them refuse a direction from the Emperor? I mean, they could just say no. But then there would be a big problem with the Jedi and the political system. That's the Jedi downfall in the end. It goes back to Dooku leaving the order for those exact reasons.

I still can’t see anything here that would turn Anakin into a cold-blooded murderer of his own kind (Jedi).

Nothing.

If anything, he’s getting his way.

If Palpatine pushed for the seat, Anakin now needs to prove that he is deserving in having it.

The Jedi aren't politicians. They get worked by the master politician. I didn't mean to say that he was the Emperor in my above post, but that after Attack of the Clones, he really is the Emperor of the galaxy, covertly speaking.

Fatboy,

The reason why it worked well is in Palpatine having faith in him, pushing for him, assigning him tasks (Note: I pushed hard for Vanda's theory for Anakin erasing the Kamino files for Palpatine in Episode II after their conversation as a way for him to establish a very strong, trusting bond with Anakin) as opposed to the Jedi who seem to hold him back at every turn.

Who would you follow, the guy who seems to like, care, respect and depend on you, or the ones who seem to resent you for even being around?






But how can we possibly feel anything for him with an attitude like that? I think it's much easier to accept him crossing over if we feel he does indeed have a gripe.


Honestly, I'm not sure if i'm supposed to cheer where he goes down in ROTS or be sad. I thought I/we were supposed to feel...sort of sad.

Exactly. It doesn't make for a complex/deep character.

Fatboys explanations are as ripe with clear thinking as they are long winded.
All you have to do is listen to GL's commentary on teh DVD's and he gives it all away there. Anakin is corrupted by his lust for power. He cannot handle change or loss, so he feels that if he has enough power, he can control the outcome of things and shape them to his will. The JEdi won't, in his eyes, let him have that power. But Palpatine encourages him to seek it out. Palpatine puts himself in a posiion to say,

"Look, I'm you friend. I'm helping you get what you want. What have the Jedi done for you? All they have done is keep you from reaching your destiny. Now they seek to destroy the "good work" we've done to protect the republic. Now come on Ani, who's your buddy. That's a good boy... who's your friend...."

Ani is actually suckered in by his desire to do right in his mind, but he get's so greedy and drunk with his own power he believes he has a right to it. Add to that the fact that Palpatine has been souring him on the Jedi for years . So I stand by a statement I made in another post, he doesnt really know what's going on until it's too late and he's already in up to his neck in it. Palaptine having him to the council serves two purpposes; it sets up further resentment that the Jedi don't give him what he thinks he's earned, and it put's Palp's into that, "Who's your buddy" space.

See I still have problems with some aspects of that. Ani knows the Sith are bad. He hated Dooku, and probably Maul. He knows that Sidious, whoever he is, is really behind all the crap going on. I just can't see him conciously taking up the Sith cause like that. It's one thing to believe he's doing the right thing for the republic, but to have him readily become bad to do good, it just seems shaky to me. I just dont think he REALLY knows whats going on around him until someone says, "Hey Ani, you done fucked up good boy."

Good stuff, I like this thread.

Hmm... that crows looking pretty good over there.....

Identical posts on seperate message boards are weird.

This is strange because Anakin and Obi-Wan are the only Jedi in Starfighters at the beginning of the film. By the way, this was something I was very pissed about.

Also, it seems now that Shaak-Ti doesn't get killed by Grievous (another downer).

As far as we know, Anakin doesn't go on any missions with other Jedi in Episode III. So how can he be condescending to them, or put others above them when he doesn't seem to even have any direct scenes fighting alongside them in the film?

Yeah, but he was willing to risk his life for them in Episode II.

"You're going to pay for all the Jedi you killed today, Dooku." - Anakin

I don't mind the change, but I'd want to see it...hear it in Episode III. A quote from Lucas, Rick M, or anyone else about Anakin's feelings toward his fellow Jedi won't cut it. A scene of him overhearing some of the Jedi saying that he doesn't deserve/shouldn't be on the Council would go a long way.

If there were other Jedi aboard the seperatist cruiser, it'd be easy enough to see Anakin "sacrifice" their safety for the good of the mission or get in their way to show off. Or instruct the other Jedi to leave saving Obi-Wan's ship from the buzz droids to him. Or maybe he can get pissy at Obi-Wan in a Council scene for letting Grevious get away when he himself killed (what the Jedi perceive to be) the Sith master?

I agree though, something like that needs to be demonstrated and not just mentioned in passing by the other Jedi behind his back like the arrogant statement that Obi-Wan made in AotC. It's something that would could really add alot to his defection if the audience got it early.

The third sentence answers the first two. Anakin has the two things he most wants - Padme as his wife and acknowledgement as the most powerful Jedi ever. At some point in the film, they're going to force him to choose between the two. He faces losing one of the things he wants the most. That's even worse than never getting it. He's not just resenting the Jedi for not recognizing him, he's defending himself from them.

As I think about it, in some ways it makes sense that Palpatine can successfully put pressure on the council to include Anakin. It's further proof to Anakin that Palpatine's way is greater than the Jedi way. The Jedi are his bitch and Anakin knows it. That's the perfect setup for Anakin to turn to Palpatine when the Jedi find out about Padme.

I have to agree with everything Fatboy has said. When this topic was first brought to light I didn't really agree with it, mainly because Anakin was too much of a loose cannon to ever believe that the Jedi would appoint him. I thought the only way it would work is if Palpatine basically had to ORDER the Jedi to appoint Anakin, which would, of course, further distance the Jedi and Anakin, since he'd be resentful of being denied by the very people that he KNOWS he's superior too.

I'm glad that we got confirmation that Palpatine had a hand in his appointment at the same time we got confirmation that he was appointed at all. I think this will help Episode III, as it will show the colossal fall Anakin makes in his quest for more power.

And btw, I don't know about everyone else, but who the hell wants to feel sorry for Anakin at the end of ROTS? I don't. When you all watched the OT, did you feel sorry for Vader? No, you hated him as the bad guy (or maybe you loved him as the bad guy, that's an issue for a shrink :p). You respected him for making the right choice in the end, but that didn't erase all the horrible things he had done.

I expect to walk out of ROTS thinking to myself "well Anakin, you had everything, and you blew it. You're a fucking dumbass." I don't care how much he was manipulated by Palpatine, how can you change so much (in a matter of days, really, between the opening battle to the final duel) that you go from saving your best friend, you former Master, TWICE to fighting him and trying to kill him days later? From loving your wife to force choking her? From calling the Jedi Temple home to raiding it and killing all in your path? From devoting your life to the Jedi order and risking your life to protect the peace in the Republic to helping Palpatine kill five Council Members (Republic Chiefs of Police, basically) that only days (hours?) ago you sat next to as equals, and have known and worked with for 13 years??????

HOW CAN YOU FEEL SORRY FOR THIS MAN? All of you, being in a spoiler forum and knowing all this, how did you EVER expect to feel sorry for him? Anakin is not a nice person. He does not do nice things. He is selfish until the last minute of his life.

Bingo. (Though hopefully we'll be saying "You're a fucking cool dumbass.")

Yep, it was confirmed he's a master. The official site databanks are not canon (you should know that :p), and certainly not up to date on everything.



Where, oh where, does this line of thinking come from? I keep hearing it and it has no basis in fact. Where in the movie has it ever stated that in order to be a Master one has to train a padawan to knighthood? NEVER. I don't care what the EU might say on the subject, because we know George doesn't care what the EU thinks either.

As for the general thing, that means nothing too. We've been told that Ki-Adi is supposedly only a Knight - and yet he's off commanding clones in battle.

Bacta you've got a serious attitude problem. I'm not quite sure why darthy and others put up with it.

You said he must be a master, your reason being that he's fully trained a padawan. I asked where the notion came from that you had to train a padawan to knighthood to be a Master, because it's not on screen.

Where did I put words in your mouth?

The "where, oh where" came from the fact that you are by FAR not the first person to think that way, and I can't for the life of me figure out where that line of thinking came from.

If you had added the part about it being your OPINION that he deserved it the first time, then I wouldn't have said anything, because you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Why don't you try being more clear instead of wrongly accusing me of putting words in your mouth. Thanks.

I don't normally take too kindly to being called a fool.

I agree. But again, why listen to Palpatine? What happens that is so bad that Anakin would consider murdering Mace Windu for him? Why not help Mace destroy him?

See, I can't come up with a good enough reason to justify Anakin's actions even in his own eyes. There is no reason for him to do what he does that I can see.

At least being snubbed for a Council seat would've provided another reason for Anakin to go to Palpatine and sulk, listen to him, be receptive to his words, etc.




I have trouble believing that the Jedi would expel their messiah because he secretly got married.

If this is the reason why he goes nuts, it will be very, very weak.



The quest for more power is a weak reason for him to cross over to the dark side. He now has everything he could ever want. There is now no reason for him to follow Palpatine once he realizes who he is. If anything, he should destroy him.



Oh, come on! This was the reason for the PT. Well, one of the reasons. The main reason being $$$.

It's not about agreeing with him. You can feel sympathy for someone who has done wrong simply because of what they've gone through in their life. Some people have tougher lives. Many more have limited choices.

Anakin didn't have Padme's life. The whole point of the PT films is to show us how Anakin ended up where he did. The hows and the whys.

Lucas is trying to generate sympathy. At the very least, understanding.

It's his fear of losing the things he's attatched to, like his mother and Padme, that puts him on the quest for power. Power equals control, control means he doesnt have to lose any of the things or people he has become attatched to. Havent you ever had something that you loved so much you would do anything to keep it. I've had relationships like that and it's not something that's easy to deal with. Now imagine that you have this great power that can influence things in a very real way, but for some reason it's not enough to have things exactly the way you want Them. Wouldn't you come to the conclusion that more power (Urugh -Tim Allen) is what's needed to accomplish your goal?

Ah, but you're missing the key point - Padme.
Padme is not going to go along with this scenario. He has to know that.

This is where we strongly disagree. Here is a relevant post I made on thi subject at the OS:

"(This is another OS posters's quote)Where's this deep hatred for the Jedi going to come from??? It's stupid. We've been told time after time Anakin's pissed because he's not getting enough recognition from the Jedi. Then we're hit with this garbage. How's Palpatine supposed to woo him over with the promise of supreme power when Anakin's a Council member, the top rankings for a Jedi??? Wow.

I think you missed the point. The card specifically says that Anakin gets on the Council with the HELP OF PALPATINE. That's key. The Jedi did NOT appoint him themselves. They disagreed with it. But because the chancellor has ABSOLUTE POWER, they have no choice.

Don't you think that Anakin would be pretty pissed that the Jedi, that HE KNOWS HE'S SUPERIOR TO, don't want to give him the respect he KNOWS HE'S EARNED? They consider themselves superior to HIM. It takes Anakin's buddy, who just happens to have absolute power, to get him on the Council. Don't you think that drives a stake between the Jedi and Anakin, BIG TIME? Don't you think that, since the Jedi don't agree with Anakin being there, that they'll ignore most of anything he has to say in the Council? Or (and this is just speculation) perhaps only Yoda, Mace and Ki-Adi are ALLOWED to talk in the Council. Don't ask me why, but we've only seen them talking in the films. So maybe Anakin isn't allowed to talk, but can't help talking - and he is getting yelled at for that.

You say how can Palpatine woo him with Supreme Power when he's a top ranking Jedi. How does being 1 of the top 12 Jedi, one which the other top 11 don't agree with you being there, even come CLOSE to resembling Supreme Power? He may be on the Council, but that means NOTHING. He's not running the Jedi. He's the Chosen One, and in his mind he's not being given the respect, responsibility, and power he deserves. He's finally acheived the pinacle of the career that he left home for and devoted his life to - and he realizes that it's not what he thought it would be. It's not all he wanted. He still wants more.

Palpatine's option is better. "

Hell, I could have told you that!




He now has the opportunity. It requires some work on his part.

He needs to show them that he deserves it.

What does he want, total control over the Council?

It's not logical. No doubt, Anakin has been ambitious. But he's not a megalomaniac.

He’s never shown such signs. If he starts behaving like this abruptly, with no real and/or believable reason(s) given, it is bad storytelling.

Mecha is right. Too many details missing.

I´m sure in his mind, he doesn´t have to show them anything, they have to show him that they accknowledge his talent. He wants to make the galaxy a better place, but he needs more power to do it. Them giving him the respect he deserves, would go a long way to achieving that.

They don´t give it, they don´t appoint him to the Council of their own free will, they don´t give him the honorable task of stopping Grievous, and that´s just two more things to drive him mad.

When they attack his buddy, the Chancellor who got him a seat in the Council and has always supported him, seemingly in a coup, that´s going to be the last straw.

Anakin obviously feels like he's done enough work over the last few years of war. Hell, he saved a Council member's life twice in one battle, killed the Sith Lord by himself, rescued the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, saved hundreds of lives on the ground by safely landing the cruiser - and the Jedi STILL don't acknowledge him. It takes the Chancellor to get the Jedi to appoint him. And that's all stuff he did in ONE DAY, ONE BATTLE, and he's had three years of those kinds of days.



See above. I've no doubt that Anakn believes he's shown them his worth way more than enough.



Quite possibly. Though I don't know if it's that so much that when he gets there, he's not in charge of it. The Jedi don't want him there, so like I said they're not going to listen to his ideas or take his suggestions seriously. That, obviously, will irk him. I don't think his original intentions were to be the Jedi dictator, but when he reaches the highest he's ever gonna get in the Jedi, he realizes that it's not as high as he thought it would be, and he's STILL not getting the respect from his peers that he knows he deserves.



Someday I will be... I will be, the most POWERFUL Jedi ever.

He obviously realizes that being the most powerful Jedi ever (which he is, as the chosen one) is not what he expected it to be. He's not the one making decisions. His ideas and suggestions are not even taken into consideration. He wants more power, more control.

Palpatine provides that option.

Score! Great work.

The problem is presenting this in a believable story arc.

Not easy.

dude, you may have quoted it in the past but that's definately dehrians. In fact I told him he should make it his sig. This goes way back to late '01.

Still holds true to this very day.

Vanda and Bacta. Chill out love birds.

Update from Pablo...he confirmed Anakin is on the Council.

Damn, really? That was a poor choice.

well if memory serves, that came straight from the mouth (keyboard) of dehrian. Hell, I could be wrong or history may not be kind to me, but that's what I remember. But listen, if you want to claim it, go ahead it'll be our little secret.

ps. secret boards ROCKED back in '01!

Back OT:

I like the idea of Anakin being on the Council, although it took Pabs to confirm it for me. Anyone looking for sympathy where Anakin is concerned has been barking up the wrong tree.

what r u mad at?

ok I see that edit.

Secret boards are everywhere. Some were just more secret than others.

I think that Skywalker being on the council is a good thing. It makes his fall from grace that much darker. Anakin will slaughter his own people, i.e. jedi's and citizens of the republic, by ways of Machavellian means.

And his turn will leave an exceedingly empty feeling to all who know him as the future Messiah. To all that know of the prophecy. Think of the Jews at Aushwitz. Their only hope was that the British or American military would come and free them. They put all their eggs in one basket. Now, imagine, intead of freeing the Jewish people, the US and Britain forces joined Nazi Germany in their extermination. That's a very depressing thought. Now, think of the Jedi when they hear that the man they were counting on to bring balance back to force joins the other side. I think Lucas is setting this up nicely.

I agree that Anakin being on the council works. It's Palpatine who puts him there , which probably isn't an appointment that every member of the council is happy with. It feeds Anakin's ego and gives Palpatine a direct link into what the council are up to, so he knows every move they are making. It'll make it all the more shocking when he turns against them. I want to know if he gets booted off tho.......