I've just come from Originaltrilogy.Com and I don't think I've seen a nastier, more malicious group of individuals. The people there are completly villifying GL and calling him little more than the conduit through which the idea of Star Wars flowed and was taken up by better qualified people.

They basically believe that ANH turned out the way it did because of the intervention of others, and that TESB and ROTJ turned out the way they did because GL took a back seat on them. One individual even called him a "meddler" in his own films.

The comments come on the heels of a very good question; Does GL take too much credit for the success of Star Wars? The way the question played out there the conensus is that GL does not acknowledge the participation of other and says that he is responsible for things that others haev done. Now, I have heard him say things like, "I put that shot in there" in regards to different things in the films, even the ones he did not direct.

However I understand that, while the directors were responsible for th eday to day operations of the shoot, the movies were still guided by GL and nothing went in without his approval in the end, and most of the things were his ideas.

It does not sound to me as if GL fails to give credit where credit is due, and I'm sure the laundry list of friends and associates he has maintained over the years can attest to that, but I'd love to hear what you all think.

Yeah those guys take nutty to an extreme, but I like what they are doing with video production.

I had never visited the OT.com forums until today. I am never going back to there again. They might as well rename that forum fascism.com.

You hate just about everyone.

Well I've only popped into OT.com a few times and haven't been there in some time but I seem to have avoided most of the crazies. Having said that I haven't been there since the dvd release and I can imagine that has stirred things up a bit.

But, going back to the original question in the first post here, I'm not sure it is true to say that Lucas takes all the credit for the original trilogy. I think it's more a case that people have given him that credit. As creator and director of the first one and as the root of Star Wars, he is obviously the figurehead of all things Star Wars and so almost every Star Wars comment over the years, positive or negative, has been directed towards him. I don't think he tries to grab all of that credit or discredit others who were integral parts of Star Wars.

The Annotated Screenplays book is a very good book for this subject as the interviews in it, which go all the way back to the start, really bring home how much of a collaberation it was. And, as much as Lucas deserves his credit, his early drafts show that if he didn't have the input from some exceptionally talented people Star Wars could quite possibly have ended up being atrocious. But it didn't, thankfully, because it was a team effort all the way from ideas, writing, to post-production. It was a fantastic team.

Possibly the problem that some of the OT.com people have is that, more recently in Star Wars history, it does not seem to be a team effort. It's simply Lucas and McCallum doing their thing with nobody around on an equal level who can help, critcise, add, whatever. Seeing how the OT was so much of a collaberation, this is bound to affect results and led to some of the percieved issues of the PT (bad dialogue, editing, etc). But, when it comes down to it, the root is still Lucas and it's his product, bad dialogue and all.

This of course also affects the changes in the newer releases of the OT. I'd actually be curious as to how hands-on Lucas was with those, even from the SE in 97. For example, I can see him asking for the Wampa to be inserted into the SE ESB, but I doubt he would have done it that way himself. The scenes are totally pedestrian, badly framed and don't edit well into the sequence. The shot of the Wampa writhing around after his arm is cut off is particularly awful. I would think Lucas would have a better eye than that. I think that this also carries to the new changes. Hayden's expressions and his moving around in RotJ are baffling and I think he must have been directed by an ILM effects person rather than Lucas or any other director. And I would have thought most movie editors would have cut the Jabba scene from ANH for exactly the same reasons it was cut in the first place - it really slows down that sequence and serves no purpose as it is all covered by the Greedo scene. But then I'm sure it wasn't inserted by someone whose job it is to make sure a movie flows well. I could be wrong about how much Lucas was involved in those changes but, in a way, I hope I'm not.

Anyway, point is - Star Wars was a team effort and, back in the day, he would have had many people who would have presented him with good arguments why some things should or shouldn't be done different ways. He doesn't seem to have that support now. However, I don't think he has gone out of his way to take credit for things that other people have done (although there is a little script argument which was touched on in that Screenplays book). Nah, he's too busy changing his mind as to what his 'original vision' was and denying it changed at all...

But you've got to give the man credit, eh?

Next off-topic post gets deleted.

One thing I'll say for Lucas is he certainly doesn't seem to take his movies quite as seriously as everyone else does. Maybe that's the issue that puts him at odds with so many of the movies fans. I see Lucas a as person who is more enamored with the process of making a film than with the actual outcome.

Take the PT. While we may have been salivating at the idea of seeing the stories of the clone wars and all the related happenings with Anakin and Obi-Wan, and while the production of these stories seemd like no brainers to us, Lucas sees them as a fun story to tell. This is no earth shattering life event for him, no culmination of a long laboring dream. He could have made these movies at any time, he certainly didnt have to wait 15 years to do it. But at some point he said, "Ya know, I think I'm gonna make some more Star Wars movies" much the same way we might think about taking a walk or making spaghetti for dinner.

So while I'm sure he enjoys the movies he has made, I'm equally as sure he is no where near as fanatical as some of us can be. To him, they're just movies. He does recognise them as a big part of his life, but I just don't think that, in the end, they are really much more than something he enjoys doing.

I agree, but I honestly think he probably doesn't enjoy it too much anymore. I get the distinct impression that he wishes he could have washed his hands of the whole franchise after TPM.

Quoted for truth. Damn, Projbalance, your last half dozen posts have caught my attention for being grounded, level-headed responses. I'm going to have to start paying more attention.

I think Lucas just likes to binge & purge on SW films. Seriously, I think the guy enjoys making up his little play-time-tales. Listen to him talk about his films, the stories and the whole background he gives to his scenarios. He's that kid that had every last detail of the GI Joe war all planned out in his head. The guy that would sit day dreaming up weird stuff. To hear him now kind of gives you the creeps because he's that kid that never grew up. I almost get that creepy Napoleon Dynamite drawing Peagasis Unicorns and midevil barbarians feeling.

The longer I do the SW fan thing, the more disgusted by fandom I get. There's a lot of whiners among us now days. A lot of people who think these are more than pop entertainment. As if it was some sort of religion and now the maker has "forsaken" us or something, broke a covenant. C'mon, grow up. SW is the new Disney, not Orson Wells. It's pulp film and damn good pulp at that. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

Damn, what was the topic again?

"Does MeBeJedi still come around here, or was he banned in one of the board purges after a spoiler feast? I don't really remember. He got peeved at me."

My "absence" (which is not quite true) has nothing to do with my exchange with you.

My time spent on SW boards, as a whole, has dropped considerably. I've pretty much lost interest in most things post-OT. Most of my time on OT.COM was to contact other people willing to put time and effort making the best DVD version of the O-OT possible, and it has really paid off.

Wow. How chicly elitist of you.

What the fuck are you talking about? Somehow, you take a personal offense to my post, and want to throw some generic taunt at me?

Get over yourself, man. Geez Louise.

[EDIT] After looking over the other thread, I'm beginning to see a clearer picture.

"Then they laude MeBeJedi about being 23.976, but fail to realize mine are too?"

"I'm being critiqued by a bunch of guys that have no idea why they think one is better or worse."

I get it now. Your feelings were hurt because I'm "copying" you, and not mentioning your name, or I'm putting down your work. Let me get some facts straight for you.

1) TO THIS DAY, I've not seen one single SW bootleg - EVER! This includes yours. All I've ever seen are screencaps.

2) I've never said anything FOR OR AGAINST your version.

3) Don't act like you invented IVTC, or have a monopoly on it. You're not the first to use it, nor will you be the last.

Now, if you want to continue to vent on me, that's all good and dandy. I couldn't care less. If you need to publicly lick your wounds at my expense, then by all means, salve yourself all you want. Nothing derogatory was intended to any website. I simply found what I needed at OT.com as well as Videohelp.com, which apparently many of the OT'ers post at as well - which goes a long way towards explaining why I was able to find such good technical advice there. I can assure you that, if your feelings got hurt, it was solely because of whatever meaning you think you gleaned off these posts, and nowhere near the actual intent of the posts.

Whatever, man. I'm not here to argue with you. I just think that most of the people over at OT.com are retarded and need to grab a clue. You should be the first one to acknowlege how much research, learning and work goes into making a quality transfer and how much the majority of the OT.com posters don't know about the process.

The OT.com posters are just out to suck dick on any johnny-come-lately that wants to do a transfer and the first thing they do is beg s/he for copies. Just look at Zion's entrance there for proof on that. Of course, once it's done they'll critique the hell out of it and "demand" a new, "better" version be made. Enjoy the "fame" while you can - it loses it's shine real quick.

As I said in the other post here at mf.com, I think IVTC is an important process for *any* film sourced video being transferred to a digital medium. It's one that's overlooked and seen as a "mystery" by too many encoders. It's good to see you're spending the extra couple of hours it takes for each film to manually go through and make sure that it's done properly.

I'm surprised, however that you've never seen an OT bootleg. Cheap asian boots were the reason I made my set. I couldn't stand the lack of quality in transfers that were running around three years ago. But just to pull out of a hat that "today's the day I invent the perfect SW transfer" without looking at what's currently available for reference is a little odd, I think. Like going to invent the wheel without looking to see if someone's already done it better.

The "elitist" comment I made is more to all the SW folks who feel somehow more 1337 if they bash anything having to do with SW since 1997, so in that right, yes it was generic. No, it's not personal. I just wish you'd all get over yourselves.

Now quit with the personal attacks about "wound licking" or whatever and finish your damned transfer already.

I am going to re-post a response I just left at OT.Com:


"While I appreciate not being named in any of the posts here, I am not ashamed of what I wrote at MF.Com. My thread there came as a reaction to the "Did GL take too much credit" thread found here. As a curious party, I had heard things about this site and I decided to take a look for myself.

That particular thread caught my attention because I thought it was an interesting topic. I was very shocked at the amount of negativity and one-sidedness the replys. There seemed to be such a concensus of viewpoints that I was really taken aback. I would have made commentary here, but I felt the proliferation of negativity would lead me into an arena of discussion that would end up being frustrating and futile. I will admit that I overstated the harshness of the replys, but some of them did border on being quite nasty.

My reactions were based not only on this thread, but several others that I scanned while here. There seems to be a very fine line betweem a serious love of one thing, and an almost fanatical hatred of another on this site, in general. And while I don't doubt that there are a variety of viewpoints beingrepresented here, they just don't seem as pervasive or powerful as the opposing. Did I believe anyone here would read my thread? Honestly, no.

Call it naieve, but it is what it is. I won't apologise as I believe my observation has merit. Seeing that kind of negative response to something all at once was like getting hit in the face with a brick.

What I do not support is the fact that others on MF.com chose to use the thread to personally attack nidividuals on this site. That was uncalled for and represents the type of negative attitude that prompted my post in the first place.

I have an issue with the overall viewpoint and the expression of it in the threads that I read, not the people who make them. I don't know any of you, at all, so all I have to work with are the comments that you leave. I can not and will not apologise for the comments of others, but I will take resposibility for bringing the whole thing up in the first place.

I do find it interesting to note that some of the people over here took to doing the same thing they accused those at MF.com of doing. You speak of how cowardly it is to talk about someone behind their backs, yet instead of stepping foreward and defending your point of view where they can see it, you gathered together in your own corner to cast dispariging remarks in their direction.

And again, while I was not mentioned by name at any time, I still feel responsible as it was my thread that got the ball rolling. I don't see any response at MF.Com to be any better than saying,

"they're just another sheep in the large flock on Skywalker Ranch.... and the only reason Lucas is keeping you around is for your wool...
but this is the last straw for Luke....
let the sheep celebrate their defective 2004 editions....
after all its not like they know what the definition of quality is...
they think the SE's are the way to go.... "

That is just as arrogant and insulting as anything said at MF.com and only serves to add fuel to an already unecessary fire.

This is not what I intended when I started the thread. If anyone here took offense to it then I apologise for that. I still believe in my viewpoint however, and I believe that the very essence of this site is less about a love for Star Wars than it is a dislike for the SE's and the PT.

I applaud your opinions and the way you stick by them, I just dissagree that making personla attacks on GL, or throwing negative labels at anyone who does not share the same point of view should be rewarded. I have made similar statements at MF.com, and I will take responsibility over there as well. If you guys are gonna bash anyone, just bash me and get it over with. But don't turn this into some stupid thing with another message board, that's a really infantile."

My ponts work in both directions. I was shocked at the attitudes over at OT.Com, but I did not intend to open up the door to a war of words with them. It does appear that MF.com and OT.Com are two camps on different sides of a line (and I think it's quite obvious which side of the line I stand) but my shock at the attitudes expressed there was never intended to be the first shell fired.

I know I'm over-dramatizing the whole thing, but the very nature of the internet calls for an over emphasizing of emotions to make a point. If you still wish to discuss the actual topic of the thread then lets do so. If you wish to razzle with OT.Com, please take it to another thread. IF you don't think it's important at all, call me a drama queen and lets move on.

A thread is begun with the thoughts or feelings of one individual and remains "attatched" to that person. If someone "yanks" on the thread, it resonates back to the person who started it. I stand by my obversation, but I'd like to see it supported by this board taking the collective high road on the issue.

And I was wrong, no one here attacked an individual over there, but that is how they will see it. Any pointed posts made here were in defense, so I will apologise before I piss anyone else off today."

I can't believe after all that you made me laugh. I take life WAY too seriously sometimes.

"You should be the first one to acknowlege how much research, learning and work goes into making a quality transfer and how much the majority of the OT.com posters don't know about the process."

If you'll look, there's a new forum specifically for these topics. Guess who put this idea into Jay's ear.

Very soon, I intend to create my own thread to post updates, and I would encourage others working on their versions to do so as well. This should help cut down on the repeated questions.

"The OT.com posters are just out to suck d" [snip]

[sigh] And, of course, this only happens on OT.com, and never anywhere else, like here, for instance. I mean, you talk like you've experienced this, but I doubt you've posted on OT.com, right?

"I think IVTC is an important process for *any* film sourced video being transferred to a digital medium. It's one that's overlooked and seen as a "mystery" by too many encoders. It's good to see you're spending the extra couple of hours it takes for each film to manually go through and make sure that it's done properly."

And I appreciate that. it really does make a significant difference in terms of overall visual quality as well as over DVD capacity.

"I'm surprised, however that you've never seen an OT bootleg. Cheap asian boots were the reason I made my set. I couldn't stand the lack of quality in transfers that were running around three years ago. But just to pull out of a hat that "today's the day I invent the perfect SW transfer" without looking at what's currently available for reference is a little odd, I think. Like going to invent the wheel without looking to see if someone's already done it better."

Well, to be honest, I've seen bootlegs of some other films, and they sucked - and these were from DVDs! I really didn't want to waste money on what could be, at best, equally trashy transfers. Besides, I always wanted a laserdisc player, and Lord knows no bootleg is ever going to match its overall quality.

Secondly, I've been working on home DVDs for some time now, and I love a challenge. I'm sorry you find it odd for someone with a love for the original SW films to want to make his own version, but here I am. If you look at my past postings on OT.com and Videohelp.com, I've had no problems asking the dumb questions in my pursuit, and have openly expressed reservations at times when trying to overcome serious technical issues. Eventually, though, I got through them.

"The "elitist" comment I made is more to all the SW folks who feel somehow more 1337 if they bash anything having to do with SW since 1997, so in that right, yes it was generic. No, it's not personal. I just wish you'd all get over yourselves."

So, now I can't even say I prefer the films the way they were? For all the strong opinions being thrown around on MF.com about these films, it's amazing that anyone one on either side can call the other's opinion "elite", but suit yourself. Just try not to put down other posters or sites so much, otherwise you, yourself, might accidentally come off sounding "elite" as well.

"and finish your damned transfer already."

I'm getting there. I have the overall procedures down, I'm just refining my techniques. I've given an earlier version to Rikter to put on BitTorrents. When he does, you are welcome to download, watch, and even critique it.

"We're funnier."

Looks don't count. :P

Well I go to both OT and here for one simple reason. I've loved Star Wars ever since I first saw it, and these two boards seem to be two of the better ones I've found.

So I don't know where I fit in this situation, but I've seen two boards based on the same genre "fight" in the past, and in this case I don't think it's really worth it.

If you don't like a particular board because of some of its members, ignore them or just don't visit it.

RATLSNAKE

Anyway, don't visit OT.com I love "Wesa Free!" is because it pisses off prequel haters/SE haters, and it's also pretty goofy heh.

You grape smuggler, you.