It may not be 100% discarded - just 99%. You can glimpse some of the art for Lucas' ST here and here.

Yep, I believe they retained some of the characters like Rey who was originally Kira and retained the idea of Luke as a Jedi Master. It seems like some of the story ideas got bumped to TLJ because from what I've read, TFA was going to open with Luke training Rey. But they went with the Death Star retread instead. So Mike, like I said, thank George for the roller coaster ride we're on.

Thanks for that. I am usually on the ball with Star Wars - must be slipping in my old age.


Went and saw TLJ again today (my third viewing) with some friends who hadn't seen it yet, and found myself really enjoying it.
I guess the first two times l went in with a sense of dread, and worried that I'd be completely disappointed. Went in relaxed and just concentrated on the story, the plot and the characters and just went with it. Ended up seeing it in a completely different light.

One of my friends who saw it with me today (who's also a writer that's written books and won awards) said that he liked it and didn't understand all the shit that had been levelled at it. He had a couple of tiny nitpicks - but on the whole enjoyed seeing it.

“Call me out”? You clearly don’t even understand the data enough to call anyone out. Where exactly do you get your ‘facts’ from then if you rule out the evidence that doesn’t back up your claims? Chicken giblets? Lights in the sky? AICN? You’re trying to argue that the prequels did NOT split opinion, but far worse, were disliked by the majority. To your chargrin I’m sure, that is patently, emperically not the case when looking at critic/audience scores and box office. Undeniably there was a perception that the prequels, specifically TPM, were inferior to the originals and used too much CGI yada yada yada... that is not the same as them being unpopular or widely disliked by the general audience... which can, as much as you may protest, be backed up by statistical data such as high audience AI, large home cinema market, high audience share when shown on terrestrial television etc. Perception is not always the reality. So I think there’s enough evidence to suggest the prequels were divisive, derided in some quarters, but remained hugely popular. To attempt to argue, as you’re doing, that the prequels were far worse than ‘divisive’ is unsubstantiated, hyperbolic and (with all due respect) represents the low form of fandom.

And now we move onto you trying to argue that there’s a conspiracy to downgrade scores for TLJ. Possibly, but there doesn’t seem to be much evidence of that, certainly no more than any other film with an existing fanbase. I’m sure you’re also aware that the technique for upscoring and downscoring can be applied to any film, even the prequels right? So if we hypothesise that TLJ scores are being downgraded, then it’s logical to assume the prequels suffered from the same. Ergo the difference is netted out wouldn’t you say? That still leaves us in a position where The Last Jedi is scoring lower than any other SW film with on-line AI scores. Hmmm.

When the BBC is talking about it, within a week of global release, it’s a little bit more than a few nerds on millenniumfalcon.com being negative towards it...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42424445

I guess this is just as a result of a couple of nerds like me being critical...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/20 ... e2e03357fa

From all of the complaints that I have read, whether one hates this film or not, seems to fall on one major factor:

Does one believe that Luke would be willing to assassinate his sleeping nephew for being tempted with the Dark Side?

Saying "Yes" to the above also accepts that Luke was willing to lose all of his pupils over his act of neposcide at his academy.

For myself, I can't accept the above two points.

There are a whole host of major plot issues with this film that beggar belief as well. I won't list them again here, because they're easily found everywhere.

This quote nails it quite well:
“the original Star Wars films were about victorious hope, the unity that binds us all and overcoming the evil inside yourself. Luke Skywalker is the embodiment of a character archetype that is as old as storytelling itself. He rises from nothing, pursues knowledge and enlightenment, overcomes despair, becomes a saviour and, through courage and determination, redeems the sins of the ones who came before him. His purpose as a character and as an icon is to personify everything a person should hope to become.

In the Last Jedi, Luke Skywalker contemplates murdering his sister’s and best friend’s son in his sleep, cries in a cave for a few decades while the world around him crumbles, gets lectured by a teenager about responsibility and then dies nonsensically. Knowing that, go look at every other plot point and twist in this movie. This film’s sole purpose isn’t to push things forward or build upon anything. It is reckless subversion for the sake of subversion. It is deconstruction with no meaning or purpose. It is a cynically assembled soapbox, made by people so arrogant and unappreciative that they would stand atop the legacy of one of film’s most quintessential stories just to make a short-sighted point about “leaving the past behind” while tossing some hamfisted political notes at the captive audience.”

The malice that's being ascribed in the above paragraph on behalf of the filmmakers, does it seem like hyperbole to some of the film's supporters?

It shouldn't.

Any film of this scale and importance has its every word hyper-scrutinized long before the scripts are handed over to the actors. It's just not possible that a film that takes a flamethrower to every central tenet of every Lucas film is doing so accidentally. Every bit of it is absolutely deliberate. It's amazing that when this central thesis is accepted (it's undeniable, as Johnson is very vocal on his taking of this approach) that one can conclude that the intentions are out of a sense of "devotion, admiration," or "loyalty" to the heart of the franchise. Any expression on the filmmakers' part of being "hurt" or "shocked" at the anger and frustration that their deliberately malignant product is generating within the hearts and minds of long-devoted fans also has to be disingenuous.

As far as I know, no apologies or hints of regret are being uttered by anyone at Lucasfilm. I'm just stating the above in case they ever do. And if they ever do utter a hint of regret or remorse, it'll be over the many millions of dollars in lost and easy profits they burned away when they torched the heart of Lucas' work.

After multiple attempts of seeing this film in the dear hope of coming to accept what it does, it's hard for me to see a future where I purchase anything further that's Star Wars related. That is a lot of money Disney's losing, and I'm far from being the only one who thinks and feels this way.

They want me to believe that a man who was literally laying his life out to save the soul of his heinous father would also seriously contemplate to assassinate his beloved nephew while he sleeps.

Incredible.

Johnson, Kennedy, Abrams and Hidalgo need to be fired.

Well said, I agree with most of these points, but few will connect the dots and see through what they are attempting to pull over the eyes of the fanbase at LF now.
I remember a quote by Lucas regarding the screenwriting process where he said "Look, just tell the story." It seems the "story group" wants to do everything but that now. As I stated before, the subtext in this film is polarizing. It is neither universal nor unifying.
This is what tends to happens when the heavy lifting involved with laying the foundation is done. When it becomes successful everyone wants to utilize the foundation and decorate it with their own agenda.
It won't matter or be an issue till it hurts profits. This can happen, but Disney is still making a mint in merchandising. The real $$$ in this franchise is the merchandise. Why do you think Disney bumped these releases to the Holiday season?
Unfortunately, Disney can probably afford to make sub-par films and still pull a profit. It's all part of the machine now.

I thought Luke said he, for one brief moment, considered killing Ben because he saw how far gone to the Dark Side he already was. Then Luke felt ashamed for even thinking that.
That in itself doesn't seem out of character to me. He himself was shocked at his own brief thought, then he of course didn't do it.

Two points:

a) Don't you guys have families to spend Christmas with?
b) Reading all the butt hurt responses above makes me feel like 2017 is basically, "Episode II - Attack of the Butt hurt Fan boys" because after a remake, Fan boys like the two above screams "wahhhhhhhhhh originality suxs!!!1111"

Can't wait for "Episode III - Revenge of the Fan boys"

Are you referring to me? I loved TLJ.

Not at all. I was referring to the two posters above you.

They weren't even capable of retaining the Lucas-approved building that makes that landscape Star Wars-y. So 99.9%, if that. So far, Disney has delivered nothing but a bunch of high-budget, licensed fan fiction.

Then, by all means, take Episodes IV-VI, go back into your basement and rewatch to your hearts content. You can cry about the good ole days, when milk was Blue and Luke was a moisture farmer.

I, for one, enjoyed the movie. My kids enjoyed the movie, more importantly. They loved this movie....they're still talking about it 12 days after, and still want to go see it.

Maybe it's time we realize, these movies AREN'T FOR US ANY MORE!

Now, be a good group of fan boys, and share it with the next generation.

Freezus and Cryostar;

Are you two EVER capable of presenting a point-by-point, well reasoned, MATURE, and insult FREE response to those who you disagree with?

Every post that I have made has NOT insulted those who like the film in spite of its enormous shortcomings. I've stated myself, several times, that I *GET* why people get caught up in the movie. But this film operates like high fructose corn syrup - gets one's sugar level maximally spiked only to destroy the liver in the end.

How about you PROVE how much "superior" you are than us older fans and DETAIL WITHOUT INSULTS how our observations are WRONG. Try, just once, an ADULT approach to REASONING with someone.

For your benefit, let's pretend that the utter stupidity of Luke lighting up his loud "laser sword" in his beloved nephew's tiny abode was something that Luke was stupid enough to do, keeping in mind that he risked losing the faith of all of his pupils by doing so.

Just make sense of a measly two major plot points that are hammered on by (once) diehard fans everywhere one looks. JUSTIFY their brilliant creativity to us older fans, so that we can finally see The Light, be elevated to your lofty abode so that we can be AWESOME like you.

How is it that the First Order's massive fleet of capital ships can't launch thousands of fighter craft to swiftly swarm and snuff out the ragtag Resistance fleet? Also, why can't the First Order send but a few of their capital ships ahead of thpe Resistance's fleet to intercept them via lightspeed, when they certainly didn't have any fuel shortage issues?

How is that the First Order's massive fleet, with all of their main sensors and magnification devices "totally" focused on the last few Resistance ships, *couldn't* detect the lifeboats fleeing the cruiser? Is the First Order's fleet only capable of seeing from the very outermost edge of its starboard hull to the very outermost edge of its port hull, and magically not beyond? Is Snoke the only individual on that ship to have a mega-magnification lens in his room? Isn't it possible that an older First Order officer had his bifocals on, was looking out the front port and saw the Resistance's lifeboat flotilla launch? Isn't it more than sensible that a few officers per capital ship might've been looking out a window in between sips of blue milk to see if any kind of escape pod was launched? One would think that after the Death Star plans debacle over Tatooine that a lesson or two would've been learned from that mistake.

And there is SO much more...

But I promise to become a steadfast worshiper of all that's splendid and regal when it comes to Freezus and Crystar if either of them can come up with a well reasoned and plausible explanation for these enormous plot holes. After all, the ENTIRE narrative of the film rides on these two genius-level plot points.

If you can't backup your vaunted and lofty superior observations, then PLEASE go back to your playrooms to continue drooling over your toy collection, and let the adults in the room try reasoning with one another.

But I'm confident that your brilliant insights will come shining through, and that you'll be earnest to gently and holistically convert us unintelligent and ignorant older fans to The Light, because this act of self-sacrifice to stoop to our level will call us back to throw our money at Lucasfilm and Disney once more. If you think that their product is so terrific, then naturally you'll want them to prosper.

My prediction though? Not only will you completely fail in sensibly explaining these mere two issues, but for the third film of this trilogy, the ticket sales will be enormously lower; at a minimum, 25% fewer ticket sales, and the overwhelming majority of those losses will be due to "uncaring" and "dumb" 35 years+ fans like me.

I'm ready to convert to well reasoned explanations.

Do your best.

A) We don't have to.
B) If I break down and analyze every "Point by Point" argument that comes out of your head, we will be here until EPIX comes out.
C) Weren't you the one that originally called the first order dreadnought a Dorito with two dongs?
D) You are allowed to hate it for whatever way Disney raped you this time (because there's always a new time)
E) We are allowed to like it for whatever reasons we want
F) It's a fucking movie...it's done for the story.

Cryostar - the fact that you put MORE TIME into finding/making that graphic than explaining and making sense of the TWO enormous plot holes that literally blows the film's entire premise out of the water speaks volumes of your incapabilities and the quicksand that you're mired in.

That entire film is as close to a pure mockery of Lucas' tenets as one can get. The perfectly-flat and tactically completely illogical TRIANGLE-design for the dreadnought (with NO shields on - oh so lucky for Poe!), the Nebulon B bombers, and the King Kong AT-ATs makes perfect sense now in light of Johnson's "I'm going to break every Star Wars rule" laser sword script. The new ship designs FIT the theme of Johnson's/Kennedy's/Abrams'/Hidalgo's abomination. What I originally mistook for laziness and ineptitude now makes perfect sense - they're grotesque exaggerations of McQuarrie's truly brilliant aesthetics; they match the film's malicious storytelling perfectly. After all, why would that dreadnought need such an enormous command bridge that literally spans its entire width?

And I've been VERY clear, NUMEROUS times that I'm NOT expecting them to make MY film. I don't even HAVE one. I'm fine with them killing Luke in this film. However, I expect them to honor the characters by not making them something that they could not be. Luke - the assassin uncle waiting in the night till his beloved nephew's asleep to cut him gently in half. Yes, that character is SOMEHOW the "same" Luke who immediately told Obiwan on Dagobah that he would NOT kill his sociopath-butcher and mass-enslaving father. For him to do what he did in his nephew's abode - that is a huge, enormous, beyond belief gulf for that character to fall into. With virtually no explanation needed other than 2 seconds' worth of lazy narration.

The only thing more pathetic than this film is your always flaccid and insult soaked statements unworthy of a toddler's maturity.

Grow up.

Then, put your money where your mouth is, anything otherwise lays bare your vapid toy-collecting nature.

I’m not sure we should get into slanging matches. I think The Last Jedi is an incredibly poor Star Wars film, and I thought TFA was bad enough, but as an oft defender of the prequels, as Cryostar states, it’s everyone's prerogative to like or loathe the films for their own personal reasons... and not to have to explain (unless one wants to)... and I’ll always defend the right to have an opinion, even if it differs from mine and even if it indirectly helps further line the coffers of Disney (an organisation I’m increasingly becoming despondent of)...

From Doctor When:
I’m not sure we should get into slanging matches.

I agree, but as is well and easily demonstrable, Cryostar has zero issues with instantly unleashing pure venom at anyone who seemingly, no matter how formally and reasonably stated, "crosses" his sensibilities.

Between Cryostar and I, he is ALWAYS the one who slings the heavy mud first.

I have NO issues with a person not wanting to respond to a counter-challenge. Be MATURE about it then. Either don't respond at all, or POLITELY decline.

So simple that even my 9 year old son can do it.

My post wasn’t aimed at you specifically Kyle... I just don’t think it’s worth any of us getting stressed about...

What happened to Star Wars and the Mythological/Joseph Campbell inspired works?
Have LFL/Disney even mentioned any of that in relation to these new films?

Campbellian influence was a Lucas quirk. Not much of that in this new era. Painful to accept.

Here’s an interesting quote by Ridley Scott in a recent interview with The Hollywood Reporter.

His response to whether he's been asked to direct a Star Wars film:

"No, no. I’m too dangerous for that. Because I know what I’m doing. I think they like to be in control, and I like to be in control myself. When you get a guy who’s done a low-budget movie and you suddenly give him $180 million, it makes no sense whatsoever. It’s fuckin’ stupid."

Doctor When - I hear you, and in a multitude of ways.

Mike_Droideka - In terms of your concerns with this film being inspired by classical mythologies from all around the world, in its declared attempts to "turn everything Star Wars upside down," The Last Jedi has also simultaneously done the same to The Hero's Journey. That's my take on it, anyway. Here's my reasoning for my opinion...

For but one example, let's look at Rey, and compare her to Luke.

Without ANY training, she is far more powerful and skilled than Luke ever was in his youth. All around the world, every culture's heroes face strenuous trials to attain much needed knowledge and growth. What did Rey do in the approximate 3-5 days since she discovered her powers in The Force Awakens (I can't give a precise figure on this, but by the time she's expelled by Luke it can't be more than 5 days since her massive powers awoke in her)?

Rey's trials were ZILCH.

NADA.

ZIPPO.

ZERO.

NOTHING at all.

Wait!

She DID do something...!

Let's see...

...She sat on a big rock and had Luke snap a blade of grass on her hand.

...She wielded the Skywalker laser sword to slice a huge thousands-of-years-old training rock in two - a feat never achieved before. And she received no actual laser sword training from Luke.

...She entered a dark hole to look over her shoulder and snap her fingers. A lot. She probably got a small blister from her strenuous snapping efforts.

...She then assaulted her "Master" by smashing him in the head from behind, and with a few swipes felled a warrior who was ACTUALLY TRAINED by two grand master swordsmen, Obi-Wan and Yoda, and who also had decades' worth of practice and experience under his belt.

That's *it.* Those are the "trials" that Rey had to "endure" to advance her already-goddess-powers up not even a noticeable notch.

Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that she definitely breaks The Hero's Journey into a million bits. Thank you Johnson, Kennedy, Abrams, and Hidalgo! That's a great role model for this and the coming generations: a person who is just entitled to pure power at awesome levels and doesn't have to sacrifice and work hard at it at all.

Let's look at Luke's journey in comparison...

He finally inherits a magical weapon handcrafted by his slain father, a great warrior by any measure. This weapon is SPECIAL, and is TAILORED to HIM by its very nature.

He worriedly allows his face to be covered to confront a drone that fires painful bolts at him, totally having to take a massive Leap of Faith to block them while blinded.

Watches his mentor duel the second most powerful and evil man in the galaxy, and then see him deliberately sacrifice his life for their escape. That doesn't sound all that original anymore now that The Last Jedi did it better, now does it?

Makes a miraculous shot having to take The Ultimate Leap of Faith in abandoning the crippling aspects of technology so that The Heart is The Great Achiever.

Literally disarms a hungry beast in a cave, to flee its abode, and then suffer a vision to compel him to train under a new master.

Is tested in humorous ways by the then trickster-Yoda.

But then has his back broken in brutally hard training of all kinds.

Enters a buried Sith shrine, and confronts a vision of his deepest and darkest fear, being given a major warning that Nietzsche would've approved of, and is well worth pondering to this day, "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

Is given numerous warnings, ignores them out of love, suffers a grievous wound and receives a psyche-shattering revelation of his Leviathan's actual identity.

Instantly refuses to kill his sociopath-butcher and mass-enslaving father, even though Yoda and Obi-Wan put enormous pressure on him to do so.

Literally enters the Lion's Den alone to face the two most evil and powerful men the galaxy has ever known, to save his father's soul, in the process turning over his weapon to proceed with the Hero's Fate.

He defeats his father both physically and emotionally. The latter form of "defeat" compels his father to sacrifice his own life to redeem himself by saving his beloved son from the most evil and powerful Dark Side psychopath the galaxy has ever known. Through his father, Luke destroys The Greatest Evil that has ever plagued the galaxy.

There's more, of course, but the evidence speaks clearly for itself. Luke SUFFERED ENORMOUSLY to achieve a seemingly impossible feat. He EARNED it while MAINTAINING HONOR, while Rey...

What did Rey do, exactly?

That's right.

NOTHING. Actually, I'm being too hard on her. She did enter a dark hole, look over her shoulder and snap her fingers.

Now THAT's how GREAT character development is supposed to be. I'm happy that Lucas and The Hero's Journey got soundly schooled by Johnson, Kennedy, Abrams and Hidalgo. Bravo team!

The evidence is overwhelming: they've given us The Ultimate Hero of Pure Entitlement.

What an outstanding role model that our world needs now, more than ever.

To HELL with thousands of years' worth of human wisdom. What do THEY know anyway?

Disney knows better, and they're going way out of their way to ensure that The Correct Path is forced down our throats.

SHAMEFUL.

So, there's this new thing....it's called the internet.

I'll I have to do is google "Whining star wars fan boys" and these marvelous images show up on my computer. Then I just "right-click" and "save"

So, you're worth about....that much effort.

As for putting my money, blah blah blah....I did. I've seen it three times, with my kids. I'll see it again, with my kids so Disney continues to produce films that make my kids love star wars. Because, unlike you, I've grown up, and take the movies for the 2 hours of entertainment that they are. I'm not looking for validation for a lifetime of fandom, because, quite simply, my life is more than star wars movies.

Enjoy your fandom, might i suggest TFN's boards.....or maybe writing some slashfic on a BBS somewhere.

From Cryostar:
Enjoy your fandom, might i suggest TFN's boards.....or maybe writing some slashfic on a BBS somewhere.

Nah!

I like it RIGHT HERE.

And I certainly won't be going anywhere else, nor will I follow your advice, which is just about as worthless as your ability to desire something a little more meaningful out of one's entertainment than finding the bare minimum fuel to justify purchasing actual toys. See, that's something that kids do. An "adult" such as yourself SHOULD know better.

Do you imagine "pew-pew" noises when you gaze at them, or do you literally vocalize the sounds? From the overwhelming evidence of your endless pedantic, childish behavior, and a complete inability to defend one's cherished position, I bet it's the latter.

Your efforts to cut me, and MANY others off, from expressing our thoughts and opinions is quite disturbing.

I'm sure that you'd find Snoke's throne a perfect fit for your behind and your totalitarian state of mind.

It's too bad that words wound you so deeply that you find yourself completely incapable of behaving like a mature adult about it. Words can't actually hurt you, you know. The pain you feel is only real because it's what you want to feel. That's...sad. Don't project it out on the legions of us who disagree with your opinion, no matter how mighty you imagine it must be. The fact that it can be so easily vaunted must disturb you deeply to always respond so childishly.

Now shoofly- go play "pew-pew" in the other room and allow the adults to actually reason with one another.

Rey endured nearly two decades of abject poverty, virtual enslavement and remote isolation. It got so bad that her very existence induced a metaphysical anomaly suggested by TFA's title.

Luke had trials no doubt. But he had family, friends and a comfortable supply of blue milk throughout most of his life before shit got a bit more real for him later on. Make no mistake, Luke is the far more privileged, entitled one.

Welcome to the Heroine's Journey.

By the way, did you want me to color code any of that for you? Maybe add some glitter and stickers too?

There’s literally nothing in either The Last Jedi or The Force Awakens to qualify Rey’s abilities. It’s modern filmmaking for audiences (which isn’t a criticism of those who liked it) whom are less into narrative development and plotting than they are into a series of action scenes being linked together by scenes of not too clever faced paced and ‘witty’ character banter. The main problem for me, with the new films, is there’s no narrative and cinematic context to them. I find lines of dialogue from Jurrasic Park strangely apt...

“Um, I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now... the sequels...”.

That's what she said.

When and Kyle have some good points... took my under 11 kids yesterday. They loved it. Its the best Marvel movie to date! Its like a cover band says they are Led Zeppelin, and they really sound like Led Zeppelin, if you squint, they sort of look like Led Zeppelin... but its not 1972... and its not Led Zeppelin, but I really want to relive my youth.

Yep and yep. It's funny how whining fan boys think whining about Star Wars is a new concept when it's been around since 1999. That's 19 years. In the time span, we've had six Star Wars movies come out since. In fact, the Prequel haters birthed the terms, "Whining Star Wars fan boys." And many of them now have children that loves the Disney-era SW films. I guess Some of the prequel fan boys/haters has come to hate on this new trilogy while their kids love it. We truly have come full circle. I bet you that the two haters in here are prequel fan boys who can't come to terms with that this trilogy is different from what came before it. Sorry but these films was never meant to please fans. Sorry Lucas would rather go on trips to see dragster races in Europe than to please the fans. He ain't coming back, period. His sale to Disney made that absolutely clear. Would you two rather have Lucas direct a new trilogy and be done when hes 85? Come on now. It was just his time to go and leave SW to a new generation of filmmakers.

I’ll defend most thing Star Wars, but it would be rather foolish to believe any and every one of them beyond critisism. Even the strong films are not ‘perfect’, and this one in particular has HUGE issues in my opinion, borne not from bad technicians per se, but more as a result as the industrialisation of Star Wars as a franchise. But what’s on screen is of course open to interpretation, regardless of wether or not Disney are increasingly driven by pushing products to market... quantity jeopardising quality etc.

Funny how you say they just got industrialized yet Lucas has done that for years... Exhibit A. All the marketing tie-in that LFL both Lucas and Disney eras. Remember these Burger King cans? How about the cereal tie-ins or the prequel Pepsi tie-ins. Or the now-Legends books and video games? You act like it was never industrialized when Lucas was doing the exact same shit Disney is now doing? Lucas literally shoved SW down our throats between Episode 1 until the sale. The Prequels was a time where you couldn't go anywhere without seeing TPM/AOTC/ROTS/Clone Wars merchandise. The difference is that SW is now automated but still cranking out new materials.

Lucas’ 6 Star Wars films in circa 30 years is hardly the same level of industrialisation. You’re confusing merchandise with the actual films fella. Moving to a production model when production of films is constant and overlapping, ad infinitum, is the issue.

The Prequels were about selling toys. If you think it's anything but that....you're fooling yourself.

The reason Lucasfilm was sold to Disney is because the business models match up. Disney is about selling product. Everything, is about selling product. Don't believe me, go google Walt Disney's business architecture. It's very simple. Lucasfilm was the same. Everything in that company was about selling merchandise. That's where the money is. It was a bonus that the films actually make money.

That's why, even of Solo tanks, it will be a win, because the merchandise will be a profit for Disney. Toys, clothes and every other related junk (Anyone seen a Nissan commercial as of late?)

Again, it's time to grow up. These aren't your movies. They never were. Enjoy them for what they are. As someone that wore out a VHS tape of ANH watching it, I'm fine....again, my girls love star wars....and that gives me something to talk with them about and a love we can share together. I'm sorry that you don't like Rey, or how she got her powers. I'm sorry that everything has to fit your preconceived Egyptian and Shakespearean models....and if it's not the old way, it's the wrong way. But you're wrong. The Last Jedi will pass $1 billion this weekend....that tells you everything you need to know.

Let it rest and understand that no one cares about your minority opinion.

Hey I've been a long time lurker (since before Revenge of The Sith I believe). Sorry for my poor English in advance...

I understand that many people liked the movie. I also understand why a lot hated it.

The plot I disliked the most in TLJ is the entire hyperspace tracking thing. If Obi Wan can throw a little pocket gps on Slave 1 to tail it from Kamino to Geonosis, then what is the novelty that made the Supremacy so fearsome? Also, a far better reason for the slow pursuit would have been that Snoke wanted Leia alive (to test Kylo or to lure Luke out I don't know) and they just chased it until the fuel ran out. Finn's subplot could have been to kidnap the architect of the Supremacy on Canto Bight and force him to help him & Rose board the Supremacy and disable the tracking thing so our heroes get one last Hyperspace Jump. The rest could have played out exactly the same but the First Order wouldn't have felt like an incompetent Bond villain unable to destroy one simple ship.

All the other story plots I'm okay with, really. Even Luke's fate and the reason Kylo fell to the dark side. Heck, I'm even okay that we still not know exactly who Snoke is or was.

Lastly, I'd like to say that the humor and dialogue is really contemporary. The entire film feels modern and yeah, older fans really need to realize and accept that.

You’re incorrect on several fronts. George Lucas was a multi millionaire. No reason to put himself through the process of movie making solely to sell toys... but obviously it’s a commercial venture too, these things are not mutually exclusive, but I’d ask you point to the evidence where Lucas explicitly stated his main driver for making films was just for money. Also, I obviously don’t judge the quality of films on wether your kids enjoy them. For one, they are just children. For another, your children may not be that deserning. I’d agree that it would enjoyable to watch a new Star Wars film together with ones children... but it’s certainly not a quality measure. It’s also a strange one that you qualify the merit of something on its box office, especially given the low audience scores (relatively speaking) it’s receiving. You don’t have to automatically love everything Lucasfilm produce, nor should you be so defensive when it comes to criticisms. People are allowed to think it a lesser form you know... and on a related note... believing that anyone who offers a negative opinion on this film needs to “grow up” seems awfully obtuse, and kind of reinforces the points made by others re. mindless fandom. I respect the fact that you love the film, but I watched and thought it was god awful. Move on.

That stood out to me too. It’s not a big thing, but I think it does reflect a general lack of diligence when it comes to plotting, story etc. and having an appreciation for the wider context.



I’m sure you understand that the dialogue and humour of the originals harkened back to a period that wasn’t contemporary right? They were modern films, but which were heavily influenced by different genre/different cinematic periods etc. That was kind of the point, that it was stylised... and, IMO, helped the originals to appear somewhat timeless and fairytale like. Of course it’s Lucasfilm’s prerogative to change the tone of the films as they see fit... but for me it underlines what’s missing in the sequels I.e. an appreciation of the wider context of what influenced the originals. Disney are far more focused on what they believe sells... namely, existing iconography, Star Wars characters looking like Star Wars characters etc. rather than the more fundamental elements (which are more important to me) like tone, imagination, narrative cohesion, plot etc.

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I agree. It's surprising that at this moment Star Wars, even though it spans an entire galaxy, seems so small. In a way the sequel trilogy feels like a bridge between the Lucas universe to their own. Triggering nostalgia for the older fans with these redesigns under the false pretense that it's meant in a creative, poetic way (rhyming as Lucas once said). So that they drag their kids to the cinema and get (re)introduced to SW. And it worked, it seemed. I get the feeling they try to end the circle with the sequel trilogy though. It'd be refreshing to see the all new trilogy get rid of lightsabers or white armoured cannon fodder. Or Death Stars. I highly doubt they will take this big risk though.

As for my comment that it's a modern film, I meant that it feels like any other DC or Marvel movie. It's not really a bad thing, but something we have not been expecting as SW fans, I believe. Hence my advice to just accept this direction if you want to enjoy these new movies.

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It’s an odd one isn’t it? The more Lucasfilm allude to moving away from what went before, the more derivative the films become (IMO). Yes - I agree that they feel more like the Marvel films now. Personally, I’m not bothered what they change... be it tone or Luke Skywalker’s sexual orientation... as long as it’s a good yarn, well made, with compelling characters. They do have great production values, and TLJ did look better than TFA, but the characters and situations are so second rate and the narrative cohesion is so poor. As mentioned, the only real reason I mention the ‘modern’ style of the dialogue, is as an example of how the don’t appear to understand the cinematic context and the in universe narrative of the previous movies. But that’s just my take on it...

Multi-billionaire. Much of his billions came from merchandising, licensing, etc., not just ticket sales.

I wondered about that too. The Empire had also tracked the Falcon with a homing beacon so the Death Star could find the Rebel base on Yavin.
Unless this is some other, newer technique of hyperspace tracking, like not with a homing beacon? Who knows?



I've always found that the humor and dialogue to be very modern or contemporary, even going back to the first movie in 1977.

“Darth Vader... only you could be so bold. The Imperial senate will not sit still for this”. Star Wars never really used contemporary sounding dialogue/language. It was certainly ‘of its time’, but Lucas intentionally went for highly stylised dialogue.

Was he a mult-billionaire in the 90’s? You’re probably correct, but even more reason why Lucas was making films predominately for cinematic/creative reasons than personal wealth.

I partially agree, I think the prequels really show an enormous creativity and imagination. The unlimited SFX resources unleashed GL's creativity in both a good and a bad way. The whole story is actualy great and rich with imagination but the way it was executed could have been better. Blinded by CGI he made some poor decisions, although they changed the entire movie industry, again. If only he felt a little restraint when it came to CGI...(I'm looking at you, CGI clones).

However, in the long run I think the PT was a set up to keep SW alive and to, ultimately, make profit. I'm sure he wanted to tell the story but not without some $$$ on his mind. And let's be fair, in Hollywood that's always the ultimate goal... Anyone who believes any of the SW movies after episode V and perhaps VI is exclusively about art or 'sharing a story' is being (a bit) naive.

There's nothing wrong with making money though, it's just hard to see if that is the sole purpose or if there's a genuine artistic motivation behind it. Especially with US movies.

Yes, but Disney / Kennedy also let Johnson take the story in the direction of his choosing. In turn, the movie is significantly less conventional than a typical Hollywood movie-by-committee. For me, there's a lot to appreciate with the apparent hands-off approach to Johnson's work.

That's a good question. He lost a ton of money after his divorce in the 80's.


I remember Han and Leia's banter in 1977 felt very contemporary and hilarious at the time.

There are urban legends that the entire reason for the Star Wars Special Edition trilogy in 1997 was so that Lucas could alter the films just enough such that he wouldn't have to keep sending slices of the profits of those films to his ex-wife.

Entering the PT, I think he knew the films would be profitable. The US box office from Episode 1 alone ($431 million) paid for the making of the entire prequel trilogy ($350 million for all 3 films). But being a creative person, he'd always had the itch to tel the story of the PT. I think his storytelling instinct was the driving force, because he knew the profits would be there regardless.

Going all the way back to the Disney purchase in 2012, I reacted to the initial news with a lot of cynicism. Because the making of Episode 7 was so prominent in the press release, it felt to me like Disney was saying "Yeah, we just paid $4 billion for this franchise, and we need to find a way to make our money back ASAP."

So from the beginning, it felt to me like the primary motivation for the existence of the PT was to pay back the Disney investors which helped it to come up with the $4 billion. Was profit a motivator for Lucas in making the PT? Sure. But in my mind, it was secondary to a creative motivation to tell the backstory of the OT. With the ST, it feels the reverse to me.

Yup - I think the prequels are flawed films for sure, but those flaws (IMO) are largely borne out of Lucas trying to push ‘the form’ and progressing the narrative that he was obviously close to. The sequels are, in my opinion, hugely flawed for differing reasons... largely because pushing the form, and progressing the original narrative, are secondary to the more commercial considerations that a studio would impose.


As I mentioned, Lucas didn’t need any more personal wealth. The prequels were more about fulfilling his pioneering filmmaking tendencies... the ancillary technologies/techniques and ‘other’ films the prequels commercial success afforded Lucas. Obviously in order to achieve this the prequels needed to be commercially successful. So yes, he wasn’t being altruistic, but he was fuelled by filmmaking first and foremost IMO. And whilst I would not suggest for a second that Abrams or Johnson would be making Star Wars without any artistic intent, they are making Star Wars films within a studio system that demands different things from the new films. Ultimately, I think that shift has resulted in more technically polished films perhaps, but films that are seriously lacking genuine creativity, imagination and compelling stories.

Exactly that. Regardless of what one thinks of Lucas, and his films, one would be hard pushed to find evidence that would suggest his motivation was personal wealth over filmmaking. In my opinion, he’s not a man that seems motivated or moved by money, ego or industry approval.

Then, why didn't he make a follow up to THX1138? Because he didn't. He didn't make an independent film. He made a block buster....he hired names. He had VFX. He came back to star wars, because it's a machine.

You guys can think of George however you want, but the man is worth 5 Billion dollars....and Billionaires don't think like you and I. Millionaires don't think like that. He could have made star wars....without the toys. But he didn't. Without the marketing...but he didn't. Why is that? If you've ever heard him speak in person (I have, twice), you'll know that ego drives this man. He's an elite in hollywood and he's keen on keeping that status. Same as Ridley Scott and James Cameron. Otherwise, they'd all go the route of Sophia Copola.