"I only know one Truth... It's time for the Jedi to end."

Wowwwww!

I've posted about my views on the Jedi a long time ago, so I'll only briefly summarize here, and I'll lay out my hopes for where Disney will take this.

The Best thing about the prequels is that Lucas condemned the "heroes," showing just how egotistical and corrupt (and lost) the Jedi were as an institution.

Unfortunately, most of this message was coded in the visuals, from their first starfighters being near exact proportional replicas of the Star Destroyers (that triangular shape is synonymous with Evil), to those fighters morphing over the films to resemble TIE Fighters, to the fact that Anakin slaughtered the Jedi and the children with a blue ("Good") lightsaber, and that the troops that assisted him were colored in Jedi Blue paint markings. There's a ton more, but The Bottom Line is this:

There would be no Emperor possible were it not for the Jedi.

Simple. Sweet. Undeniable.

And it was their arrogance, fully confident that they were "The Good Guys," that brought the Republic to its knees.

And rightfully so.

My heart sank a bit after I saw The Force Awakens, and the sinking continued as the canonical supplements (novels, comics, etc.) provided more details. It's pretty clear to me that Luke was making the same mistakes as his predecessors did. Institutionalizing celibacy (denying a Natural and deeply embedded hard-wiring is a terrible idea, leading to far worse perversions than accepting what's truly Natural and learning to INTEGRATE it with one's desires for a better world, and is as Pro Nature as can possibly be), establishing a temple for the Force "elite," etc., etc.

History has demonstrated, over and over and OVER again, that concentrating power ALWAYS, with NO exceptions, leads to corruption, and unimaginably painful ruin. Right now, our entire planet is, once again, on the verge of collapse and calamity.

I hope, deeply, that Luke has finally learned The Ultimate Lesson, and he's going to overturn on a fundamental level how things are done.

If the Force is as Yoda describes it...
"For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.”

...then the Force needs to be awakened in EVERYONE. By distributing the power, one ensures BALANCE, for no government, party or individual can then simply seize it to do with it as he pleases.

And thus the Jedi must end.

The sooner, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

What's your take on what Luke might possibly mean...?

I'm pumped...!

Good post Kyle... that follows my thoughts too. The most interesting thing about the new dialogue is that it does sound as if they are going to explore the prophecy of the chosen one, and the nature of the Jedi and Sith. I was always of the notion that Anakin was conceived by the force to rid the galaxy of both Jedi and Sith... and that by leaving leaving Luke alive at the end of ROTJ actually retained the 'imbalance'.

Now of course Disney aren't going to rid the movies of Jedi and Sith, that would be like shooting themselves in the foot, but I think the writers (and I believe this is where Lucas was originally going) can show that the future lies with a new kind of Force user... one that is less dogmatic and less part of an organised religion.

Love your interpretation.

Mine is a little more simplified.

"I only know one Truth... It's time for the Jedi (as we know them) to end."

Yeah, I agree with both of you.

My own position on Vader/Anakin is this...

We know that Vader was redeemed to Anakin because of his presence as a Force ghost at the end of the film. That would not have happened had he not been successful.

At the end of The Return of the Jedi, the Force was back in Balance.

What threw it out of Balance was Luke.

Luke's establishment of the old Jedi Order, at the very least, played a substantial part in throwing the universe out of Balance. The responsibility of keeping it in Balance cannot all fall onto the shoulders of those who only enforce Light Side aspects. The Dark Siders alone could throw it out of whack, but due to their nature, they're not beholden to maintain Balance. It's like expecting a wolf to assist a family of bunny rabbits - it'd never happen.

There are SO many problems with the Jedi Order. I'm writing a whole separate thread on it now, and who knows when I'll have time to finish it, but I'll eventually post it on MF when I'm done with it.

It was thoroughly, irredeemably, corrupt. Right to its core. It was also perverse. Again, just to bring up the most glaring example one more time... The Jedi were a highly organized, strongly hierarchical, special forces unit that was CELIBATE. They somehow thought that they were "so awesome" that they were better able to raise (actually, indoctrinate/brainwash) the children pupils than the children's actual parents! This is as anti-Nature as one can get! Honestly, the list that I've written so far is HUGE about how messed up they were.

If this is what Luke reestablished... There's no way the Force could stay in Balance. In some ways, they're worse than the Sith. The Sith were at least HONEST with themselves. They looked in the mirror and saw an insatiable, power and wealth hungry wolf, and they embraced their nature. They definitely lied to everyone else about it, because that gets them closer to the flocks of sheep. Contrast that to the "good" guys. The Jedi looked in the mirror and saw super intelligent and generous bunny rabbits. And they loved what they saw. But in reality, they were absolutely beholden to power, their own and the Republic's (which was already corrupt before Palpatine came along).

All Palpatine did was make their delusional beliefs align with their brutal behaviors. He hardly had to do anything to make those Ultimate Shock Troopers the adamantium tip of his spear. And did they ever work HARD for him. Because he merged their inner arrogance with his own.

Nothing has changed today. It's been this way for actual human history for thousands of years, and unless we smarten up in a major way, it will be for thousands more. Or till the nukes land, crack up a few of the nuclear power plants allover the world, and we're roasted from the inside out by radioactive fallout.

Again, I dearly desire for Disney to have Luke take a radical approach towards Force education. He needs to get it out to everyone. That'll make it extremely challenging for the psychopaths to exploit everyone else. It's easy to clutch a pinch of sand. It's impossible to do to an entire beach's worth.

Gangs of Force-Users would abound. Some beholden to the Dark, some beholden to the Light. No monopolies on power. Everyone could be a Robin Hood.

And in terms of storytelling... No longer will there have to be a few lightsaber-wielders on the screen. It could be dozens, if not hundreds, and that would make what we see on the screen look entirely different from before.

I think what we'll get, going forward, is a situation where lightsabre wielding force users can exist, but only in isolation ala Obi-Wan, Yoda and Luke. As long as it's not organised religion, it will keep the force in balance. The opportunities for multiple force users (in terms of films) will now be in the time period pre TFA... unless of course Johnson has cut the trailer/Luke's dialogue to specifically mislead us.

I'll leave this here as it all ties in with Luke and the whole "the Jedi must end" nonsense!

Read it. No skimming.


***UPDATED SINCE TLJ TEASER TRAILER***


The original post of the List/Evidence for Plagueis:


Snoke is described as being steeped in Dark Side knowledge. Plagueis was known for having "such a knowledge of the Dark Side".

Snoke is described by his apprentice, Kylo Ren, as “wise”. Which villain in the Star Wars saga was labelled ‘wise”?


Snoke's theme is nigh on identical to that of the Opera Scene in ROTS where we learn about Darth Plagueis.


Snoke literally looks like he has cheated death. His injuries are extensive. The only person we know who has actually cheated death (saved others) is Plagueis. Did he really teach his apprentice everything he knew? Have Sith Lords ever been known to bend the truth? Tell a little lie here and there? Masters of deception, anyone?!


Within the Darth Plagueis novel that was de-canonised, Plagueis talks about having Superweapons that can destroy entire star systems, he talks about ruling from the shadows whilst Sidious is the public face, of how immortality is more important than the power Sidious is after and on the cover appears as a large hologram overlooking Sidious. There are also many more verses in the novel that could fit very nicely with what we know about Snoke. It should also be noted that Plagueis had his apprentice Sidious murder his family as his final trial - something Snoke orders Kylo Ren to do.


Plagueis was originally a Muun. A tall (7ft), pale, skinny alien. That was de-canonised. Like the book that shares many ideas that resemble Snoke's story. And what does Snoke look like - Tall (7ft), pale, skinny and he's an alien.

Here's the weird bit: JJ even considered the possibility of Snoke being a woman. He didn’t want him to be an old and decrepit, like the Emperor. Um…but what did we end up with?


In the original script for ROTS, Lucas had it that Anakin WAS created by the Sith (Palpatine). He discarded it as it was unnecessary. However it shows what his final thoughts were on Anakin's origins. Then he decides to write the ST. He needs a villain. Would Lucas' villain not have been Plagueis? The perfect tie in with HIS beloved PT and a way of directly continuing the Darth Vader chosen one tale? Keep in mind Michael Arndt's recent comments that Lucas' treatments weren't in fact ditched but that much of it remains.


In the comic con conference, JJ tells us that LK was not being honest when he mishears Plagueis as Vegas as he says "LK is messing with you". This shows us that JJ passed the question over hoping LK would come up with a good cover story. But LK messed it up. Daisy Ridley is also shushed by Abrams as she begins to say "Is that S...". Whatever happened there, it got awkward and is a point for Plagueis IMO. The question from comic con was specifically about whether Plagueis would be mentioned in Episode VII and about the staff - NOT if Darth Plagueis will be in the ST, like many people have misinterpreted.



Kylo suggests to Hux that Snoke considered a clone army - something that once had direct implications with the Sith and their plan to take over. A nod to Plagueis' former role. He's minted and funded the clone army - more on this later.



Where did Snoke acquire his extensive Dark Side knowledge? If anyone can get this knowledge what is the point in the Jedi and Sith? Why did they have a monopoly on the Force? Why is so much made of knowledge being passed down within both orders if Snoke can just learn it himself? This means to me that Snoke was a Sith. But the only Sith who could've survived and reemerged is Plagueis.

During Rey’s vision sequence in TFA, we can clearly hear the voice of Palpatine saying “any Jedi!” This carefully selected piece of audio was lifted from a scene form ROTS where Palpatine is talking to Anakin about saving Padme from death. Once again, this is a nod to Plagueis and the power he possessed to save people from dying. Why use this line? Why reference the PT when apparently “Disney are distancing themselves from the PT” as many deluded fans claim?


It was confirmed that there were NO Sith in TFA. Again, this resulted in fans claiming “Snoke can’t be Plagueis!” Nonsense. After cheating death, Plagueis would have abandoned the Sith order (Maul, Rebels anyone?!).


Sidious and Vader were the only two Sith remaining. Once Vader killed Sidious, the Sith were destroyed and balance was restored. Plagueis’ existence does not interfere in the prophecy.



Star Wars Rebels

( & enter George Lucas. Plagueis’ creator.)


So, Uncle George decides to bring back Darth Maul in TCW, after we watched him get sliced in half in TPM. George stated that he died in TPM at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi. He looked pretty dead to me too. Anyway, we now see Mr Maul pop up in ‘Rebels’ as ‘Old Master’. Mr Maul has made it clear that he despises the Sith and has nothing to do with the order any more. Hmmm, what’s this? A former Sith Lord, who has cheated death, abandoned the order, has been in the shadows for years, plotting his revenge on all of his enemies. What on earth could this be eluding to? Good work Mr Filoni, I see what you did there! Oh and one more thing...Why is Maul on the back cover of the Plagueis novel. Coincidental, isnt it…?



I’ll throw a quote in here….



Andy Serkis: “I have no idea who he is!”

Interesting comments Andrew. Isn’t Snoke just Snoke? If he was just an original character, why is there a mystery surrounding his identity? But “He’s a newly introduced character!” I hear you cry. Well Andrew, we’ve never actually been introduced to Darth Plagueis before. We’ve only ever heard of him. So, technically Snoke IS a new character. He just used to go by a different name when he was a Sith Lord.



The List/Evidence against Plagueis = Snoke.


Supreme Leader Snoke, despite being horrifically damaged, is cheating death and all the other similarities he shares with Plagueis, as stated above, might just be a random new bad guy they’ve decided to introduce. Disney and some of the best storytellers and producers on the planet decided that this would be the way to go.


Insert Funny GIF here




******UPDATED******


We have now been told by MSW that Snoke is dressed in gold and is all about the money! He's got a "palace" on his ridiculously huge Star Destroyer. He's minted and he flaunts it. Sounds like they've been taken elements from the Plagueis novel...again! #moneybagsdemask



My theory:


I've always been a believer that the ST is about the rise of a new Jedi order, which will result in the demise of the Skywalker's. As was heavily implied in ROTS, and as Ian McDiarmid eluded to at SWCO, Anakin was created by Plagueis. The Skywalker's are tainted by the Dark Side and their very existence is due to the all powerful former Sith Lord, Darth Plagueis.


The Skywalker's are cursed. The Skywalker bloodline is tainted and needs to end. Leia will die. Kylo will be redeemed by saving Rey in ep9 and die in the process. Luke will eventually become one with the force. Rey will be the one who carries on and leads the new Jedi Order as she IS NOT a Skywalker. Maz confirmed this in TFA with the line: "Whoever you're waiting for, they're not coming back".


This brings us to The Last Jedi teaser trailer:


Luke: "I know one truth. The Jedi must end". I very much doubt that dialogue is taken from the same scene. However, if it is, it has been cut differently. The way he says "Jedi" sounds way off to the way rest of the sentence is spoken. Could it possibly go like this: " I know one truth. The Skywalker bond with the Jedi, must end..."


There so much more...

Even the description of 'Snoke's' new guards seem to be based on Plagueis' Sun Guards.

Snoke seeing the rise and fall of the Empire.

The fact that Snoke seems to easily acquire the remnants of the Empire for his own First Order so quickly, just doesn't add up, unless his identity is known to the last of the Imperial elite. Then he's in pole position.

The fact that he had an apprentice before Kylo Ren.

Kylo now uses a red lightsaber, just like a Sith? If this guy is all new, and nothing to do with the Sith, why are his methods identical to the Sith?

Snoke is Former Sith Lord Darth Plagueis. And this is HIS NEW ORDER.

This is actually the biggest indication for me. By far. The music in Star Wars includes hints such as The Emperor's theme being hidden inside the EP1 celebration music.

This line reminds me of Luke's quip about Yoda wanting the impossible. When it comes to the Force and his own abilities, there's always been lot of self-doubt on Luke's part.

Overall, he could just be b.s.'ing as a gauge of Rey's commitment.

Concerning Snoke being Plagueis, I'm still don't get the cloak-dagger thrust of the theory. There is not a good narrative explanation or in-universe cause for the masking of his identity. If he's Plagueis, why would his identify be a secret?

Cornering Snoke's theme, the Clones marched to the battle droids' theme on Kamino. They were not later revealed to be battle droids.

Darth Plagueis was his Sith title. He abandoned the Sith after his apprentice thought he had murderd him. He took
A back seat, could foresee the failure of the Empire and downfall of the Sith, and began his plans for galactic domination in the form
of the First Order.

Now that the DP novel is no longer canon, his true name could be anything LF/Disney wanted.....even 'Snoke'.

Is that in one of the books or something? Just curious.

It's an explanation. After Plagueis was thought to be dead, the Sith continued with the rule of two - with Sidious and Vader. However, Snoke, formerly known as Darth Plagueis, survived the attempted murder by Sidious, cheated death, abandoned the Sith, and began the First Order under his true identity - Snoke.

It requires little exposition on screen, and his backstory is one most hardcore fans are aware of. To the causal fan, Snoke is just the Emperors former master. He's fucking hardcore, basically. Cheating death, getting one over on the over confident Sidious, and pulling the strings from the very start.

The fact that Plagueis created Anakin - something that Ian McDiarmid once again eluded to at this years SWOC, means for me, that the ST is about how the Skywalker's are tainted by the darkside and they are effectively cursed by their creator. Luke WILL train Rey to take over the next generation of Jedi. Luke, Leia and Kylo/Ben (Kylo/Ben will be redeemed by sacrificing himself and saving Rey) will all die by the end of Ep9 afer destroying their creator. The new Jedi, without the Skywalker bloodline, will prevail......and Disney can create shit loads more saga films!

Yes. 'Rey Random' confirmed.

It's been said a bunch of times officially that Snoke is not Plagueis.

I'm a Star Wars guy, but people need to stop expecting a movie like 2001.

It won't happen.

Even Kasdan lied in that Entertainment Weekly interview where he said that Kylo was this deep, complex character. He said he probably was the most interesting character he ever created.

Does anybody think that is the case?

It will be a kiddie movie... like always.

Actually, I'd like that. Lucasfilm people deny, of course, so it may or may not be true, but at least it would be some kind of closure to the 9 films long story arc: from "creation" of Anakin, through his redemption, to "creator's" demise.
There is one more thing that seems to support this theory. We know Lucas had plans for sequel trilogy and I don't think he came up with that idea in 2012. I guess he knew all along (at least since ROTJ) that after Emperor's death he would need a powerful - and well rooted, so to speak -villain to even start dreaming about sequel trilogy. So he "planted" him in the prequels. Wouldn't it be enough for Palpatine in ROTS to say to Anakin: "Awright, so you've discovered the truth - I am a Sith. But you know what? I can cheat death; what a nice coincidence!" Why create the elaborate opera scene and the legend of Plagueis the Wise? (Other than showing chicks with flippers inside water balls .) In other words: it is quite possible that Kasdan and Abrams just saw the opportunity created by Lucas. And I'd like that much more than any Ezra-Snoke or Random-Snoke theory.
Oh, well. We'll see .

He didn't lie. We just don't agree with him.

.
I wouldn't mind if Snoke was Darth Plagueis. On a lot of levels, it makes sense, and it would likely be an easier explanation than just having a brand new villain appear.

It would tie into the Prequels, and actually give them a more retroactive menace.

In the novel, Palpatine poisons him - if you look at Snoke's physical deformations, his wounds, one can't help but wonder if the poison Palpatine used burned a hole through his jaw and cheek, and caused the tissues in his throat to become grotesquely malformed.

And if they changed Snoke's racial background from the novel, I'm fine with that too. Munn's are so bizarre in appearance, that they don't look like they could be very threatening.

Didn't Palpatine also zap Plagueis with Force lightening? It's been a while since I read the book. That would certainly account for Snoke's messed up face and head.

Zapped the shit out of him after they both got hammered on red wine!

Been there, done that. Followed by a hangover only a bullet could cure.

I'll drink to that....

I just don't want to give Johnson free reign either.

Let's get real.

It's Looper and Brick, not Casablanca and Citizen Kane.

It's like the people going crazy over the Han Solo directors.

The Lego Movie and 21 Jump Street?

Really? I mean, really?

Or like people flipping their lids over Rogue One reshoots.

I think the uproar has less to do with the individuals (Lord/Miller) as it does the general upheaval this causes.

Gotta wonder how many warnings those guys got until KK pulled the trigger. Firings of this type don't happen easily or lightly.

From royalguard96:
Gotta wonder how many warnings those guys got until KK pulled the trigger. Firings of this type don't happen easily or lightly.

You're absolutely correct on this. I'm sure that they were given plenty of "warnings," which, at first, I'm quite certain, were delivered in a friendly and collaborative manner.

They had to have ignored them, BIG time.

But I'm not totally surprised. The entire Lego film was a giant (and funny) middle-finger to Crony-Corporate-America as it exists today. Will Ferrel was "The Man," and it was central to the film that he had to be stood up to, defied, and given a new heart by its end. The imaginations behind this message were the guys that were fired. Could I see them bucking it till the end?

Oh yeah.