I remember all too well the night in 1983 when all of my friends and I flocked to see ROTJ when it opened. At the end, we all just looked at each other and said "how the hell did Lucas manage to ruin Star Wars?"

The stupid looking Jabba Muppet Show, the retarded teddy bear schtick, Carrie Fisher's lifeless performance, Harrison Ford acting like he doesn't want to be there, the painful dialogue delivery, and the overall ham-handed "fly casual" tone of the movie just really put me off at the time. I saw it once, totally wiped it out of my head, and didn't see it again until 1997. I thought the Special Edition improved upon it somewhat, especially getting rid of that god-awful happy gay Disneyesque song at the end, but I didn't really come to appreciate what ROTJ had to offer (besides being the end of the story) until TPM came out.


I can deal with the first episode of a story not being the best part of the whole saga, but I can't deal very well with the finale being a silly cheese fest. However, I have to say I'd be just as interested in seeing both the pod race and the speeder bike chase in 3D.

I was 12 when Episode I came out, already hardcore into Star Wars for about 8 years. It was still disappointing then. You had to latch onto things that were cool to try and justify the Star Wars name. "Oh, but Darth Maul! Uhh...the pod race! The next one will be good, this one just introduced everyone when they're kids!" I can honestly say it was less cool to be a Star Wars fan at that moment.

It's really too bad there was no Han Solo kind of guy, no Luke figure. It's too bad everything had to be needlessly convoluted and the characters so vacuous, phlegmatic and sexless. But, you know, that's what George wanted. IV-VI are about the humans, the prequels are about soulless, unidentifiable diplomats and psychopaths.

That whooshing sound you heard was my point going right by you. As I said, maybe the core fans weren't big on TPM but there's really no arguing that mass audiences weren't. The numbers just tell a different story.

Where, exactly, do you see this happening? Because I've gotta say, I don't see any surge of sudden appreciation for TPM, or the prequels as a whole.

I'll give you an example: I spend some time on trekbbs. It's actually a very well informed sci-fi community (quite unlike, say, ), with sci-fi industry insiders as members, and the prequels are none too popular there. And before anyone gets defensive about Trek fans hating on Star Wars, the general vibe there has more to do with solid disappointment with the flaws of the PT -- usually very well argued -- than fan boyish nonsense. And yes, there are passionate PT fans there (I'm one of them), but on the whole, there's a solid consensus that the PT just doesn't hold a candle to the OT.

And that site isn't alone in its attitude toward the PT.

So yeah, there were plenty of people who did go to see TPM back in the day, but they sure aren't necessarily making their voices heard at the moment -- other than on Star Wars message boards, perhaps. They may come around someday but, in general, I think it's much too soon for TPM nostalgia to kick in.

The wildcard in all of this is The Clone Wars. It's successful, it's got a following. I think the success of the 3D release will have more to do with Clone Wars fans than OT or even PT fans.

Exactly. And even then, there were favourable reviews. But the press gave more attention to the negative ones, just to cause more shock. I remember that everyone cheered at the teather when the movie ended.

Boy, you leave for a few days...

Rather than throw up some anecdotal evidence to support my claim that TPM is held in a certain regard, shall we say, by the general public, I'd like everyone to take a listen to Kevin Smith's Hollywood Babylon podcast from about 1:05:10 onward. Here's a link:

http://www.smodcast.com/babbleon/babble ... leon7.html

It's not just us, folks.

Fuck Yeah!

Star wars is full of so many great visually dynamic moments, I can't wait to sit through all of these a dozen times a piece. You folks arguing about the films is cute. TL,DR the last half, but from what I can tell; yes, parts of ROTJ are embarassing to show a woman and tell her I like this shit, but I have come to love ROTJ because it reminds me of 1983. I have the original Yub Nub ending ripped to CD in my car right now. I blast that shit. I like the updated version of the movie better though, visually.


The general public hated TPM when it came out. I wasn't very impressed either, but it has since grown on me. And the general public as well. Seeing it in 3D will be dope. I can forsee sales of hallucinogenic narcotics skyrocketting in the first weeks this comes out btw.

Word.

No matter what Lucas says about "the tragedy of Darth Vader", prequels are really a flashback, a bonus story. You can ignore it if you want (especially if you can watch pre SE versions). But ROTJ is supposed to be the grand finale. Whether you watch I-VI or IV-VI, you can't ignore it.

The only reason it gives a pass and supposed to be better than the prequels is of the few cool scenes and familiar characters from its two beloved predecessors. You might not even notice at first that most of them are pale shadows of themselves.

If anything, prequels actually improved on ROTJ. I can respect Palps a lot more now when I've seen how he'd conned everyone in the galaxy. And Anakin's fall gives more meaning to Luke's choices.

ROTJ is flat out a kid's movie. When I was younger (i.e. 9) it was the most fun of the three but as I grew older it was obviously and by far the weakest. It plays as a semi-parody to people seeing it the first time. I heard the phrase "is this a joke?" at least a dozen times from people I've introduced to the saga during ROTJ.

No doubt ROTJ gained the most from the PT.

So that's the real reason George made the PT.

I can agree that ROTJ is the weakest of the films. It's certainly the least favorite of the films for me.

It makes remember how disappointed I was when the rumors that Spielberg was at the helm proved to be false. This film had so much potential. A more competent (let alone brilliant) director could have made it among the best, even with the kiddie elements included. Thinking back on it still makes me want to do things. Terrible things. Like expose children to Metalcore.

I loathe certain moments of ROTJ. Sy Snoodles, overall Ewok design (although its grown on me), and some of the campy humor. But the Luke/Vader interaction from the moment they meet on the platform to the end, Palpatine and DSII, all of the space battle scenes and the speeder bike chase (which is growing off me, sadly), make this film still a favorite to watch. Sure, it will never take the title of 'best film' from ESB, but elements of ROTJ in 3D ought to be more amazing things to behold than anything else we will see from Star Wars 3D. Worth stepping out to pee during the 3D musical montage, pre-rancor, wtf moment.

Actually, all of the films have moments in them that lend enough visually to justify the price of 3D admission. No matter how one ranks them, every release, if they've done as great a job as they claim to have done, will be awesome. The opening marathon-scene at the beginning of ROTS should blow off your skull-cap. Pod racing in 3D, as shown in Star Tours, is fantastic, and opening up the angles from the static first person view to the scenes as shown in TPM will be a great way to start. TPM Coruscant has a retro vibe that will be neat to see in the new format as well.

Speaking of which, while my least favorite of the bunch, I am geeked like all hell to see AOTC in 3D, just to witness the obi-swan dive out into the cavernous city traffic and subsequent chase. That. Will. Be. Jaw. Dropping. Shit. Folks.

I dunno, I am jazzed for this. I wish they had a different release schedule. Two a year sounds better for me, if anyone is keeping track. I might burst into dust or get sent to prison or someting in 6-7 years. Fingers crossed, I have the time to see them all.

Let the ROTJ bashing continue!

Vader doesn't even choke anyone once! In fact, he seems extremely passive in this one. Even slave Anakin had more spirit. It's as if once Lucas had decided that he'd be redeemed he can't do no wrong. Even slave Anakin shows more spirit.



Yeah, it clearly has this 80s campy adventure feel, while the first two are almost timeless (as much as it's possible with the cinema anyway). I know Lucas always had youngsters in mind as his target audience, but this is the first time where he got carried away too far in that direction. Even TPM is less childish (although fart jokes is the new low for the Saga, to be sure).

My cousins, while very young, would always name ROTJ as their favorite. I suppose it proves that ewoks and happy endings appeal to kids the most. Nowadays, they're more interested in smoking pot than in any of the SW movies



I dunno about Spielberg, ROTJ's main problem is the story (IMO weakest of the bunch). So unless whoever ended up being the director convinced Lucas to rewrite the whole thing, starting with Leia not being Luke's sister, turning ewoks back to Wookies, having Emperor on Coruscant, etc., I don't think that even Kershner or Lynch would make much of a difference. Where I think someone like Spielberg would matter more is TPM and AOTC. They might have improved actors' performance, ditched the worst lines, pushed for better editing. Spielberg certainly wouldn't have let Williams' score to be butchered the way it was in AOTC.



But you have to sit through 90 minutes of filler to get to the good stuff, and there's not even a lot of eye candy in there (unless you count the slave bikini). Also, Emperor is way over the top and only impresses with the prequels in mind, and the second Death Star is just lame.

If I have an inclination to watch the entire saga in in one day, it goes something like this:

TPM -> Sidius's scenes, podrace, the duel)
AOTC -> Coruscant chase, Kamino, Tusken slaughter/Anakin's confession, the ending
ROTS (maybe skip some of the opening battle)
ANH (maybe skip the droids' trek across the desert)
ESB (maybe skip some of the Hoth stuff and the asteroid monster)
ROTJ (skip directly to the Vader/Luke scenes)

I'd like to view the Sage as a flawed masterpiece.

What? While I loathe the 1st musical bit with a passion, and sure, it isn't the movie I would have made neccesarily, you are cherry-picking the nibbly bits with the benefit of 20 years of hindsight. I doubt I'm alone in finding a lot of the Tattooine stuff interesting, Rancor, Sarlacc, etc. ROTJ Emperor is superior to ROTS post-lightning Palps on an order of magnitude comparable to pointing a spotlight at the sun. At noon, on a sunny day. And DSII was lame?? WTF, Why, because it didn't blow up any planets? The interior shots with the space-race to the core were/are fantastic, the throne room and the hanger scenes looked great. Whattaya' want, to see the trash compactors on the detention block or it's a deal breaker? I don't get it.



Why? You could make a thread for that, detailing the intracacies of your superior vision, somewhere that it would make sense. If you think ROTJ will be the weakest film in 3D, then okay, you're still nutso', but it fits here.



Well, I'd like to win the lottery and have my wife turn into a bisexual nymphomaniac. I don't tell her she sucks because that aint happened yet.

Of all the stuff I didn't like about ROTJ, the one thing I didn't mind was the 2nd Death Star. It's logical, really. Like someone says in the movie CONTACT -

"Why build only one when you can build two for only twice the price?"

A lot of the Tattooine stuff works fine for me. It makes sense for the story to go to Jabba's Palace because that's exactly where we leave off in ESB. It's really just the musical number. It takes what should be an incredibly dangerous locale and turns it into the Muppet Show.

For Nostalgia, I'll always love ROTJ notwithstanding the silly palace scenes, but there's certainly an understanding for how mature Star Wars fans would be put off by what they were watching in 1983, especially coming off the tone set in ESB. Endor, which features a very generic environment and the silly Ewoks, only exacerbates the off-putting content.

I've flip-flopped on the inclusion of another Death Star. At first I thought it was lame and lazy storytelling (if the Empire is almighty can't they just think of another threat that isn't so susceptible to these fighter-led assaults?) but AOTC introduces the concept of death star(s) as the enforcement weapon the Empire will use to keep systems in from a very early stage. The death star was intrinsically linked to the formation of the Empire. From an action standpoint, they made DSII far more interesting and the sets (especially the Emperor's Throne Room) are varied enough to keep things fresh.

In a perfect world, I think George wanted Coruscant to be featured in ROTJ but was limited by technology. He did what he could to give DSII an Imperial City-like vibe.

Cherrypicking would be complaining that Han doesn't get to fly MF again. What gets to me is lazy storytelling (let's make Leia the "Other") and two of the trio looking like a pale shadow of themselves.



The scenes on the Death Star are great, it's just the whole attack seems like rehashing of ANH. And while I'm ok with the Emperor overall, I think that as a main villain he's too cartoonish for Star Wars (the fact that he's even more over the top in ROTS is not exactly relevant for ROTJ).

I'm not saying that ROTJ is not fit for 3D. In fact, it might actually be more fun since it does have a lot of cool action.

With that concept in mind, how can you enjoy anything but Eps IV & V?

I get it. You don't like ROTJ. That's cool. I do.

If we say "this 'embarrasing to be seen with' Star Wars moment makes this Episode suck", then the only one that doesn't suck is ESB. And even then, some 'highbrow' cinemaphile types will still sneer. Those moments are everywhere in the saga. My point, if I have one, is that the issues you seem to have in ROTJ are still present, and in many ways bigger, in the PT.

Except the Sy Snoodles bit. That shit is batshit loco.

Because they actually seem like better thought out stories to me?



Now, let's not get carried away. I like them all, some more than others. The throne room scenes is ROTJ are probably my favorite scenes in the entire saga, and the space battle is still epic, I just wish the rest of the movie had more to offer.



True, but like I said, they annoy me more in ROTJ because it's the finale - and the one following the two best entries in the saga. They had everything going for them, so what the heck happened?



To be honest, I'm not exactly looking forward to Jar-Jar's antics in 3D either.

I'm not looking forward to see 3PO and R2 walking in the desert in 3D.

I'm not looking forward to Carrie Fisher's lower-back mole in 3D, nor the happy Ewok, sad Ewok, scared baby Ewok, jumping-jack Ewok or the Ewok with the R2 fetish in 3D either...

So, you think the PT consisted of "better thought out stories" than ROTJ? Because that's insane. The weakest of the OT, sure. But compared to the PT, ROTJ looks like fucking gold story-wise. The entire PT is muddied with insane shit, Anakin creating C3PO, Sifo Dias, and wtf are midichlorians. The pivotal 'fall to the darkside' was handled like an 11th grader wrote it for cryin out loud.



And here we are, in agreement. Isn't that nice??

Midi-Chlorians are easy to explain; most folks confuse Midi-Chlorians with The Force where in fact, they are two separate things.
We know from the films, that The Force is present in all living things, it surrounds, penetrates and binds the galaxy together.

But what is it that allows the Jedi, to tap into that power and do amazing things? Training? Well, if that were so, there wouldn't be a shortage of Jedi Knights in the galaxy; all you'd have to do is train more people.
There has to be something that separates the Jedi (and Sith) characters, from the everyday characters that inhabit the GFFA and Midi-Chlorians are the perfect device.

All living beings in the SW universe, contain Midi-Chlorians in their blood stream. Jedi (and Sith) have a much higher concentration of them, allowing them to tap into The Force. Yoda's count is even higher and Anakin's, was abnormally high. Think of Midi-Chlorians as a conduit to The Force and not the Force itself.

Okay, while I appreciate and understand your explination (really, nice way to put it), I was meaning it more as a stab at the writing dumbfuckery that's sprinkled through 4/6ths of the saga. As an element of the story, it made little sense on the screen, particularly since it was never mentioned/touched on ever again.

It isn't one of those things I personally get too worked up over though, hell I found it interesting. But it's an interesting distraction.

His opinion is as valid (or on your own words: insane) as yours.

Hey, Alex, I appreciate your opinion on this and many other topics, so please don't take this the wrong way. But don't try to go all 'peacemaker' on me here. We're having what I'd consider to be a humorous and enlightening conflict of opinions, AKA: argument, debate, contest if you will. I haven't called him a Nazi yet, and he gave me the eye-roll emoticon.

So in childish retaliation, I'm punching just under the belt a little by alluding to his degree of mental stability for holding what I consider to be a 'ridiculous' opinion. Not to mention folks, this is the 'Star Wars:3D' thread, and I happen to very strongly believe, as stated above, that in 3D, ROTJ will have many moments that eclipse the parts of the saga he is pointing out and calling superior.

So forgive me when I say this, but go cut the balls off someone elses internet experience, would ya? Either jump in with your own take on things, or kindly stfu.

If it makes you feel better, you can make a thread in the 'reservation' detailing what a jerk I am. That place is getting dusty.

Saying that someone's opinion is insane (just because is different from yours) is not an argument, but instead lack of. That's all I'm saying.

Cheers.

Arguing the semantics of language in the middle of a 'discussion' thread is counterproductive. Go get on your facebook for sterilized, cute, back and forth whydontcha'. Better yet, lets take this outside (the blue thingy means 'click here', 18 and over only please, thank you) like international digital representations of men should, huh?

As another point, I'd like to say that in 3D, I am actually looking forward to the parts anyone, including myself, find horrid. If only because part of what I love about any Star Wars film is the visual depth and creativity that goes into each shot. I'd rock in my seat to 3D 'Yub-Nub' if that's what they put on the screen just because in the frame of the movie screen, even those moments will blow my mind. I hope.

Having seen the new Star Tours ride, which admittedly is a wholly different format, I'm convinced that even in 'poorly done' 3D the whole thing will be a great experience. If God doesn't hate me altogether, he will let me live to at least see them all. Although I've still got plans after that.

EDIT: Below


Wow. You got me there. Your really adding to the discussion there, Hemmingway.

*Sigh*