Five Years Later

[CoGro]

Watched Episode III on TV for the first time in years today.

Two observations:

1. If the direction was better but had the exact same script and acting the movie would be 10 times stronger. Some of the shot setups in HUGE moments are just horribly conceived.

2. There might be 20 full-fleged landing sequences in this film. What a waste of money and runtime.

That being said, I'm happy to know that Sith has some very powerful moments that still hit me 5 years later.

[Cryostar]

But aren't the pictures of the ships landing pretty? Plus, that's time that people don't have to speak, and by people, I mean Hayden.

I still find his acting painful especially in the lead up to the duel.

Though I think the collage of Order 66 is one of the most well done parts in a film.

[royalguard96]

The only complaint I have with the movie is not something I've heard a lot of criticism about, and that's the dialogue delivery of Ewan McGregor in key parts of the second half of the film.

Starting with Order 66 onward, in my opinion, his lines of dialogue are just OK, but his delivery is awful. "I can't watch anymore," "I have failed you, Anakin," are way beneath his talents as an actor. Those were some key points where his delivery mattered more than then content of the lines, and the ADR recordings (I'm assuming) were poorly selected. There was a way to say those lines with much different emphasis that would have fit the moments much more appropriately.

Having said that, his non-speaking acting throughout the duel is excellent, and his final look, on the Naboo skiff as he departs Mustafar, is moving. I almost wish the final duel would have been completely dialogue-free, until the part where Ewan says "YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!" That part was extremely well-done, in my opinion.

I think ROTS was infinitely better-edited than AOTC, and just doesn't feel like the rush-job that AOTC feels like today. I think Lucas learned a lot of things from the making of AOTC, and applied them smartly on ROTS, particularly in bringing in Roger Barton as an editor.

ROTS, to this day, remains the most powerful cinematic experience I've ever had, and 95 percent of the credit for that should go to Lucas. I don't think every single thing Lucas has ever done is perfect, but his body of work will always be an untouchable favorite, to me.

[Daglington]

Still don't buy the fall to the dark side. It's one thing to reluctantly support Palpatine to save Padme, but somehow he became fully fledged evil within a couple of days. I just don't get it.

[K.Steeze]

I tend to look at it in terms of a broken man. His deal with Palpatine caused him to lose his wife instead of save her. He tried to kill his best friend. He fell so far down a path that he hated that it was easier for him to go even farther than it was for him to admit that he was wrong.

[ETAndElliot4Ever]

The whole production has that rushed feeling. I think Lucas came up with a deadline when planning the prequels and that deadline was fucking tough for everyone, including him. Every aspect suffered. The scripts, the performances, the effects, the MUSIC.

The scripts were unpolished. Performances are all over the place. Needed a lot of re-takes. Editing is wacky. Entire scenes feel totally abnormal in ROTS, for example. The scene where Anakin tells Mace Windu about the Emperor and when Obi-Wan talks to Padme. Those are terrible scenes.

Ben Burtt is a horrible editor. Hayden was pitiful much of the time. The movie has no visual identity outside of all the effects. This is rarely mentioned. AOTC and ROTS are a bore to look at when the screen isn't cluttered with visual effects. The cinematography is too straight-forward for such fantastic stories and settings.

Empire is still the best-looking one. It's a beautiful thing to behold. There's this slickness to AOTC and ROTS, a polished video non-film look that prevents me from grounding them in any kind of reality like the earlier movies.

[jmkb44]

I think there are 2 main things that make it the prequels seem out of place, first was the move to digital. It gives it a way to clean look, even compared to Phantom Menance. One of the things that New Hope did to change movies was its "used" look. Up until that point, every sci fi movie was very sterile, brand new and white looking. I get it that before the clone wars it was supposed to be a more civilized age, but nothing is gritty looking in AOTC of ROTS.Some of this is due to the CGI work, but the lack of practical sets really suspend belief. Its getting close, but its not completely there yet.

The second thing is the 10 year jump from TPM to AOTC. It suffers the same way the Pirates trilogy did, where the second and third movies bridge one story and the first movie still feels like a stand alone adventure. I think it would have been way more affective if Anakin was 14 in TPM, still young enough to have attachment issues but old enough to get excited by Padme.

One thing that never gets talked alot about is the eventual special additions of these movies that eventually will come. I wonder what he will update in ROTS and AOTC. I clear update that needs to be made is giving Anakin a black glove when he leaves his ship and tells R2 to stay back on Mustafar.

[ETAndElliot4Ever]

The stories feel rushed in Clones and Sith. We pretty much KNEW everything that was going to happen. Rather than feeling like a progressive story and series of events, seeing things unfolding such as in the last 45 minutes of Episode III, it was like Lucas had a checklist of things to resolve or tie up. So the story and the universe just kind of take all these wild turns because it's required.

When Palpatine becomes the Emperor, he just sort of transforms into this monstrous visage similar to the old movies. It doesn't really make any sense and it's never explained, but I guess we just accept it. I mean, we know he's supposed to look kind of like that, right? But still, why not just have the old guy age progressively during the course of the movies.

The Republic becoming the Empire had little effect on me. We know this has occurred because it's thundering out, there are guys in Imperial uniforms and ships with TIE fighter sounds. Oh yeah, and there's Vader.

We never really connect with most of the Jedi. Even the ones we do know, like Mace Window, there's a certain soullessness to them. Obi-Wan, Anakin, Qui-Gon and I suppose Yoda are the only ones that seem to exhibit human qualities. Although, Anakin is more of an anti-hero with some serious anger issues. It's tough to really stand behind him.

Who the hell cares about Plo Koon, conehead or the tramp with the tits and ass? When they are killed, the scene may be well-conceived and scored, but not for the series that preceded it. As such, I'm not sure what Lucas was going for here. In Episode II, many Jedi are murdered and we apparently are not meant to feel anything. It's just a mindless action scene with comic relief by See-Threepio. In Episode III, we are supposed to feel for these guys?

Anakin goes into a hospital as a severe burn victim and missing a few limbs and comes out with a fucking cape and spooky outfit. I can't be the only one that imagined Anakin chose this appearance when he turned to the dark side, probably after he was injured. Some kind of modified traditional Sith armor. Another thing that is rarely mentioned is the impact these climactic scenes would have had if the films had been made in a chronological order. Imagine the original trilogy didn't exist (just briefly, please, I know it's a nightmare). Anakin being chopped up, burned and placed into the Vader outfit would have been one of the most ridiculous plot twists in the history of cinema. At least the way Lucas pulled it off.

Perhaps I've just become cynical in my old age, but the movies just seem progressively more silly and disappointing as time goes by. There's none of that magic to bind it all together like the old ones.

[TroyObliX]

As an old man, and one who grew up fantasizing about and financing my own minature version of the Star Wars Universe, I have to admit, the Prequels in total are a dissapointment. I'm one of those people who are glad when they make something, anything related to Star Wars that I can consume. And the films of the Prequel trillogy truly are an artistic masterpiece, as far as art direction, design, and visual effects are concerned. But storywise, it wasn't at all what I had been waiting for. I had always imagined it had all happened far differently. That the Jedi had been intelligent and wise warrior thinker/badasses. And in the PT they just seem like a bunch of mid-level agents of some strange Universalist church with a license to be aloof. I thought they would be tougher, and more commited to freedom, and progress. Not the easily blind-sided bunch of tea-sipping puppets of the system they seemed to be by the end of ROTS.

I agree with a lot of ETAndElliot4Ever's points above, and the Vader part is what got me thinking enough to post. I too had imagined that his look was somehow more meaningful. That there was more depth to it all, other than "we put him in that because that's what he looks like". The PT isn't even so much "rushed" from my perspective, as much as it's mis-managed story-wise. It all makes me more a fan of the Empire, I guess. They're so badass, they don't require an explination.

Still, glad they made them. They could have just made them longer. Or better. Or both.

[thecolorsblend]

I still love the prequels. In terms of vision, scale and sheer balls, I can't think of any other trilogy to really compare.

That said, they're not perfect. I don't care what Lucas says now or what he said back in 1977, the prequels just weren't structured in a way to actually be told across three films. Lucas might've outlined where the OT characters and story came from but I don't think he ever actually intended to make Eps 1 to 3 and so he never really refined the story in a way that would balance each film enough with an equal amount of meat. It feels like ROTS has the lion's share of the narrative and that's unavoidable given how the backstory had to play out. The narrative is pretty unbalanced across the three films.

Mind you, this could've been avoided had he outlined and fleshed the movies out back in 1994 rather than writing each script as he went along.

Also, it feels like Lucas sort of chickened out on something after TPM. AOTC just doesn't feel like the Episode II we would've gotten. I think Lucas would've gone a different direction had it not been for all the crap he took after TPM.

One thing I'll praise the hell out of Lucas for doing, though, is portraying the Jedi Order as a group that's supposed to be concerned with all of these high minded ideals and whatnot but ultimately more concerned with covering their own ass than following the will of the Force. Qui-Gon was viewed as a loose cannon simply because he did what the Force prompted him to do rather than jumping each time the Council called... which says a lot about how far out of whack the Order had become.

The easy choice would've been to portray the Jedi as selfless, virtuous heroes; Lucas instead gave us a group who started off with wonderful ideals but who was complicit in it's own destruction. All Anakin did was give them what they had coming.

Highly enjoyable films.

[jmkb44]

I think your right, he had a new story he wanted to tell and sprinkled references to the original trilogy but then had to tie everything up in ROTS. Looking back, there were going to be 3 types of people seeing the movies, those who love all thing star wars, those going because of the hype, and the general public that goes into every movie looking to tear it to shreads. No matter what, there was not way it was going to match the hype of the publicity machine, nor the expectations of fans who have been dreaming of the clone wars from 1977 on. Yet it is the top grossing trilogy of all time currently, for a set of movies people love to hate, everyone went to see it many times.

For better or worse, these movies did push the envelope in terms of digital movie making and special effects. I was more impressed with Jar Jar from a technical standpoint then I was of Gollum, and still am. I think people were more amazed because Gollum was closer to a human and could be interpeted as "real" a little easier then a tall Gungan.

But back on topic, I personally loved the prequels, but I went in with an open mind and was just glad to be able to go back to the universe. There was so much that I think went right with it for me. I liked that the Jedi were arrogant to be taken, it gives a nice contrast to the fact the plan that Palpatine hatched was done back to him by Yoda. He was blind to Luke until he blew up the Death Star, just like the Jedi were blind until Maul showed up. They both took young Jedi in search of something and told them what they needed to hear from a certain point of view to drive them to both bring their version of balance to the force.

Even though the main plot line is Anakin and his redemption, the subplot of the rise and fall of the Empire was one of the things for the most part told very well over the course of the 6 movies. Thats why TPM to me was so good, it was such an opposite world, a more civilized age. The main action was some trade sqabbles that the Jedi became complacent middle men, not warriors that showed up and kicked ass. They never had to, it had been peaceful for so long, so they were ripe for the picking. That fact alone disappointed so many, because everyone thought it was going to be all Jedi action and it turned into the Jedi waiting around to bring balance to the Force when there was nothing really going on in the galaxy. Like I said before, the Anakin\Padme storyline would have worked better, and Anakin as a character would be more beleivable if he was around 14 in the TPM and there was a 5 year jump to AOTC.

As for AOTC, I did not mind the love story, it did not ruin the movie for me the way it did for others. It could have been done better, and would have made more sense if Anakin and Padme were like real horny teens and were trying to get into each others pants but kept getting interupted instead of Anakin trying to seduce her, it came across way to wooden. The start of the clone wars is still enjoyable to me, as is the whole final battle, especially when Obi Wan and Anakin bickering when Padme falls. Even the clones and introduction of Dooku were advances in that story, I just wished there was a mention of Grevious at some point, so he just doesn't appear out of no where in ROTS.

With ROTS, I liked how Anakin was attached to Palpatine as a father figure, and how they elude to him getting alot of personal encouragement from Palpatine. I did like that Anakin became consumed by his visions and need to save Padme, even though it would have been better if he did not rush to turn in Palpatine, and if after he revealed himself to Anakin, if Anakin still was mentored, and he walked in on Mace and Palpatine fighting forcing him to chose who to help. Order 66 and the end battles are great, but the Vader suit should have had more story as to why that suit instead of being what they had around to keep him alive. I would have accepted a quick line or 2 about how that was some form of enhanced century old Sith armor Palpatine used as symbolism, so it makes sense why people see him and get scared in the OT as an example.

Wow, I have no gone off on a Star Wars topic like that in ages, I apoligize for the long winded post, in short, I am a fan of the prequels, flaws and all. The Clone wars series is helping add to the story of AOTC and can't wait to see how they kill Asoka.

[E_CHU_TA!]

There’s no guarantee that Ahsoka will be offed in the series. She may go into hiding before ROTS or be inserted into the film in some capacity. Like with the PT storyline, GL still has a lot of room to maneuver.

I recently re-watched the six films for the first time in a couple years. Somewhat surprisingly, I now find the three prequels to be more interesting in their approach than the OT movies.

The best way to get my point across is to break down two scenes from each Trilogy.

Remember the scene in TESB where the Falcon makes a clever escape by floating away “with the rest of the garbage?” Before, the escape there is an exchange between Leia and Han. Their dialogue is much more subdued than their previous scenes where they pretend to hate one another. Harrison gets to coolly be Harrison as he searches for Bespin and makes a line like “no love for the Empire” seem less silly than it is. Even though the Falcon gets away at the end, tension is not lifted. Boba Fett shadows the heroes in their escape.

On the surface, the scene does a good job of forwarding the story and suspense. Below the surface, there's not much going on.

Here’s the clip for reference (scene at 2:28 mark):

Hidden: 

The waterfall scene in AOTC plays out much differently than the scene I just described. At this point in AOTC, Padme is in danger, but there is no sense of emanate peril. Instead, we have a casual scene where the two characters talk about their private lives and politics. In the end, Anakin shows-off, fakes injury, and ends-up embraced by Padme.

In regard to their discussion, Anakin believes in a totalitarian form of government and finds democracy to be too irrational. Padme believes the current system works despite its seeming messiness. Even after the Republic’s failure during the Trade Federation invasion, she believes that democracy is the only just form of representation. (Later, Obi-wan will later take a similar stance after an even more egregious failure of government.)

Their political point-of-views are in direct conflict with their personal beliefs. Despite wanting strict order, Anakin hates systems and rules. He will later tell Padme that he cannot be rational when it comes to his feelings for her. Conversably, despite embracing the complexity of Democracy, Padme is very singular when it comes to her feelings for Anakin. She knows that their relationship is counter-productive to their careers and must be forgone. She attempts to rule herself with her head and not heart.

Of course, Anakin still manages to reel her in. He does this partially by playing to one of Padme’s better qualities – her selflessness. When Padme sees Anakin's fall in the field, she instinctually runs to help him. Even though he is faking in this instance, this exchange indicates something larger. Padme is the most emotionally giving character in the saga and Anakin is the most emotionally needy character. It’s only natural that she end-up entangled with him. Their tumble at the end is symbolizes their attraction and foreshadows their later death spiral.

Also, in regard, to symbolism, it’s hard to ignore the water in the background. Padme is associated with water throughout the PT. This makes sense, since mythology often associates water with women (think child birth). This waterfall is in direct contrast with the lavafall on Mustafar. Naturally, the hot-blooded Anakin is symbolized by fire. It’s understandable that he finds Padme’s company to be “soothing.”

Water is also an unconscious link to Obi-wan who is on Kamino at this point in the film. Even though, the two characters are on different planets, Lucas wants to show that their actions are interrelated. Later, when Obi-wan travels to the arid planet of Geonosis, Anakin will be in an equally dry place – Tatooine. I like the structural symmetry which is being employed.

Here’s the clip (scene at 4:13 mark):

Hidden: 

So, with one film, we have a cool scene with expository discussion. With the other, we have an intimate scene with abstract discussion. One scene ends with intrigue and the other with a knowingly corny tumble.

In the end, I find the Clones scene to be much more interesting because of what’s happening below the surface.

These two scenes are not completely representative of every scene in the two Trilogies. But, in general, I think it can be said that the PT has more going on when it comes to character study, historical analysis, and symbolism than the OT. As I watch the PT films, I see a wide net being cast and admire the director for doing so (even if it’s at the expense of pacing or audience identification).

royalguard96 wrote:

The only complaint I have with the movie is not something I've heard a lot of criticism about, and that's the dialogue delivery of Ewan McGregor in key parts of the second half of the film.

I don’t see this at all. His reading is of "I can't watch anymore" is matter-of-fact because he’s in shock. The comic adaption had Obi-wan collapsing on the floor in grief. To me, this is too maudlin. After all, Obi-wan had a good idea that Anakin was responsible before viewing the footage.



Again a clip (mark at 3:56):

Hidden: 

When Obi-wan states that “I have failed you, Anakin,” it’s a simple apology to Anakin and admission of responsibility. I think Ewan’s calm reading is consistent with this sentiment.

Final clip (mark at 4:07)

Hidden: 

[royalguard96]

Good counterpoints, ECHUTA.

I remember hearing a theory about the PT as a whole that could have tied those filmes together a little better:

Introduce Dooku towards the end of TPM. Have a shot of him at Qui-Gon's funeral, then walking out in disgust. Maybe with a glance towards Yoda or Mace. That point could be identified as when he started to move towards the dark side, and the 10-year gap between TPM and AOTC adequately explains his change from one point to the other.

Second, introduce Grievous in the end of AOTC. As was mentioned above, he kind of appears out of nowhere in ROTS, and is easily dispatched part of the way through the film. His presence has little-to-no overall impact on the PT as a whole. Show Grievous slaughtering Jedi in the catacombs of the Geonosis Arena, yet have him go undiscovered by any surviving Jedi. His presence adds another level of a threat to the Jedi Order, and allows his introduction in ROTS to carry more significance. When the audience sees him for the first time in ROTS now, he's just this weird-looking droid who coughs a lot. But with a small introduction in AOTC, the threat he carries with him gets amplified.

These are small criticisms in my mind. The PT remains just as enjoyable of a movie-watching experience for me as the OT does. These trilogies were made in completely different eras for completely different audiences. But we can still follow the stories of Aankin/Vader and Obi-Wan through to their conclusions. All six movies are so densely layered and well-designed, they will have unending appeal for me.

I will say, it is nice to see TPM becoming more highly respected with time. It is a beautifully-photographed film, and truly protrays the galaxy in a way I always wondered about when I only had the OT to watch. TPM is the ideal starting point for this saga in the big picture, even if Anakin was too young. In order to appreciate the ending, you have to see the beginning, and TPM contrasts with ROTS perfectly within the PT and saga as a whole.

[VT-16]

If anything, TCW has become the glue that keeps the PT relatively together.

I have less problems with Anakin turning after seeing him actually fight for three years straight. What the film didn't do well, was portray him as a war veteran, a possibly burnt-out wreck at that. At least in the series, we're getting scenes with him breaking under pressure (contrast any random banter when he's chopping up droids, to him yelling at Ahsoka during the botched landing at Geonosis).

It's an element the films totally lack and a loss on their part. TCW is just damage control at this point and doing a good job of it.

[ETAndElliot4Ever]

Darth Maul, Dooku and Grievous were all fairly lame villains of the week. Darth Maul looked cool, but he was boring and barely said anything. Who IS this guy? Why doesn't he say anything when they're behind the energy walls?

Dooku was Christopher Lee, but he was more boring than algebra. There was an attempt to flesh the old guy out, but I still found myself not caring about him or anything he happened to be doing in the universe.

Grievous was a completely ridiculous character.

[thecolorsblend]

Sounds like you're saying Ep II and III, in particular, suffered from not utilizing as many locations. I can't really think of anything from ROTS that could've been shot on location. At least, not without so much added in that you may as well have shot them on a blue screen stage anyway.

A lot of the problems the prequels have is more structural than anything. Maybe this effects shot could've been better or that line of dialogue could've been rewritten but no big deal. But the pacing? The prequel narrative is fine (better, I'd argue, than the OT) but Lucas didn't outline the three movies in advance and you get stuck with sort of wonky pacing. TPM is relaxed and carefree, AOTC has Lucas realizing how much could've and should've been put in TPM and parts of ROTS come off like a mad scramble.

It works, it works well, but it's not what it could've been.

[Joe1138]

[foxbatkllr]

5 years later ROTS is still my favorite Star Wars movies. Is it perfect, no...but neither is ESB (that film is plagued with problems everyone wants to ignore because OMG AT-ATs and "it's all dark and stuff").

For me, ROTS adds the most dramatic moments in the entire saga. Better executed and more meaningful than any other dramatic moments in the entire saga. Order 66 is absolutely amazing. To this day it still gives me goosebumps and challenges my tear ducts to keep dry. The declaration of the Empire includes Padme's only good line and Natalie Portman's only perfectly delivered line in all of the prequels. Then there's the immolation scene...and Padme's funeral. There is just so much good stuff in this film that I feel Lucas did so much better than I ever thought he could have.

I also think Anakin's fall was handled quite well. I prefer the way they did it. You can't have him turn to the dark side for no reason at all but if you give him a legitimate reason (like the Jedi do something wrong) for turning the dark side, it lessens the importance of his fall. His murder of Mace clearly set off a switch in his head whereby he knew there was no turning back and he may have even been powerless to help it. Yoda said "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." I really think this is what happened here.

To me, the Star Wars Saga is like a Greek Tragedy. I feel those that complain about the prequels don't quite get that aspect of it.

[Joe1138]

[Bandersnatch]

[TroyObliX]

[ETAndElliot4Ever]

[E_CHU_TA!]

[thecolorsblend]

That, and the OT follows the dregs and losers of society as they overcome (supposedly) insurmountable odds. That's where Han Solo lives.

The PT follows society's upper crust as they proceed to fuck up the entire galaxy. A Han Solo type of character wouldn't fit well in that world.

Just sayin...

[TroyObliX]

No. But maybe someone with an attitude. Everyone in the PT looks like they have to take a dump. It's in the eyes, I think. Very "I am uncomfortable." Not in a terribly distracting way, but it's there. Han Solo was more or less relaxed into his role in the universe. Leia was at times too. Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford were better actors.

Maybe it's not "better". Maybe to me they just appeared more comfortable on camera. It was the 70's. Wasn't everyone in California stoned for some portion of the late 70's? Maybe that's the difference. Or maybe it's that those characters were allowed to or chose to react as a normal person would. If they were a person who doesn't have to take a dump would. To react to moments where a cocky smirk and "Oh Yeah?" dripping off yer face are appropriate. Nobody looked like they were thinking anything inappropriate in the PT. Except for Anakins sex-offenderish grin in AOTC, in Padme's apartment when he makes Padme (and me too rilly) uncomfortable and she's all "Stop looking at me like that." I think the pressure of business in the era of "People hate that" immediate feedback response, coupled with what always looked like to me as a "yes sir" culture (from Lucasfilm business shown in behind the scenes footage). No offence, you all do a fine job. I'm a fan of your products. I'm just sayin. That's how it looks. Who wants to disagree with the rich guy in charge. It's never a good way to get ahead. But that culture that the PT was made in was what made a lot of people nervous. Fans bitched about Jar-Jar. And he was gone from the story by ROTS.

Someone like Han Solo wouldn't have fit into the story of the PT. But maybe the live action series. The End.

[thecolorsblend]

Harry Knowles has said precious few things I agree with but one point he made was that the OT has a far better cast of characters while the PT has a much better story. I would largely agree with that.