(perhaps even more than the Original Trilogy)

I've been having mad probs logging in, so I'm going to use this fortuitous break to make a long ass post....

I don't think I could flat out say the PT is better than the OT or vice versa. They are so vastly different that they aren't really worth comparing, however, the PT is often sold short, mainly b/c of its huge differences with the OT.

But, the PT, taken as one movie is quite a remarkably well told story. People say GL didn't plan out the PT, bullshit, he planned it out even better than the OT, I think. Despite the editing misfires in the individual films, put the three together, the stories woven are so narrow and tight, it's rather great. And (for all you who say the PT lacks "character development" the most ill used term in film), the plot is much more character driven. The themes each character deals with are so strong and well developed. Anakin dealing with attachment, Obi-Wan with duty, Padme with duty versus emotion.

ANAKIN - from the first moment we meet him is heading down a path laid with good intentions toward the Dark Side. In TPM, we establish this very Buddhist notion of his inability to accept emotional suffering in life, and see that it will be his downfall. His split with his mother is the first plot point along his Dark Side path. Step two and three are in AOTC when he loses one loved one and replaces it with another (in a very Oedipal fashion I might say, as Padme and Anakin's relationship is throughout the PT. By the time ROTS rolls around, it's quite clear what his downfall will be about. Some people are just too fucking literal minded and think that Anakin went to the Dark Side solely to save Padme from his dreams, its so much larger than that. It's about his fatal flaw, he is unable to accept the inevitabilities of life. He is compulsive and obsessive. He didn't just foresee Padme's death, he created it, his own fear created the dreams. His story is quite a beautiful and well crafted arc.

OBI - likewise, Obi has a nice little arc. We are introduced to a man obsessed with duty and code, who takes on an apprentice only out of his love for his master. Obi-Wan's insistence on duty and sacrifice of self continues into ROTS when its quite moving, no part of him wants to kill Anakin, but he carries out his duty nonetheless, fighting the brother he's so dearly gone to love. Anakin's relationship to Obi too has a solid arc, from typical rebellious son to loving brothers.

I could go much deeper and into Padme and others, but the point is, Lucas has crafted a wonderful three act play. Each individual act may be more flawed than those in the OT (with the exception of ROTS, which IMO is unarguably the best of the 6), but the three acts put together are quite excellent. People need to step back from their preconceptions (ie, "I thought the prequels were going to be all about the Clone Wars"), and at least acknowledge that GL had a master plan from the moment he started writing TPM in 94 or whatever the fuck it was, and that he carried it out pretty damn fucking well.

Right on Manny. You laid it out pretty nice there. I have to agree with you on that.

You think ROTS is the best of the six? Wow.

The original trilogy is loads better than the prequels.

Is that a fact?

Though, I like the OT more, it isn't better than the PT and the PT isn't better than it. Both have their own unique 'Star Wars' feel but are still connected firmly.

My favorite of the 6 is, believe it or not, The Phantom Menace (with the other 2 PT movies being my least favorite).

Good post Manny, I pretty much agree with you ( besides you 'maybe' like the PT more).

Unfortunately, there's good reason for the "character development" complaints. For every beautiful visual achievement in the PT (and for every great scene like the opera-house discussion) there's at least one glaring clunker like Luke's vs. Leia's memory, the painfully awkward 'romance', cutesy comedy routines (Jar-Jar, 3PO, etc), the ultimate emptiness of Dooku's character, and Anakin's very odd turn to the darkside. It's just sloppy, sloppy writing.

What the hell was Darth Maul's purpose in Episode 1? He failed at everything he set out to do, but it made no difference. Hell, if he'd succeded in killing Padme on Tattoine, Palpatine probably would not have made Chancellor. He was actually worse than pointless.

Or take Anakin's very odd turn to the dark side:
1. Anakin believes Palpatine can save Padme.
2. Anakin turns Palpatine in to the Jedi as a Sith Lord.
3. Palpatine kills several Jedi, shoots lightning from his fingertips and screams like an evil monster about "Absolute Power."
4. Anakin helps to kill Mace Windu to save Palpatine, saying "What have I done? I'm yours!"
5. Palpatine admits he doesn't actually know how to save Padme, but asks Anakin to go kill all the Jedi, including the children, which Anakin does with no questions asked.

It's fan-fiction writing. I can appreciate these films, but I have to imagine different dialogue and additional motivations to keep my brain from rejecting them entirely. It was a brave move for Lucas to return after 17 years to write and direct an epic trilogy. Brave, but foolish.

His mission wasn't to kill Padme, it was to kill the Jedi. And yes he failed, but he was also the first Sith to literally emerge from the shadows in a millennium. And he "killed" Qui-Gon, and we know what became of that. In turn, when Obi-Wan bested him, he became a Jedi Knight. With Qui-Gon dead, Obi-Wan took over Anakin's training.

So his character was not pointless. In fact, he set many things into motion in what time he was on screen.

The movie implies that his mission is to thwart the Queen's efforts to save Naboo, which he fails at, which makes no nevermind to Palpatine anyway.

One could also say Maul distracted the Jedi, while simultaneously scaring the hell out of them. They didn't even notice Palpatine's machinations, much less the gradual crumbling of the Chosen One's psyche.

Also, the description of Anakin's turn is disingenuous, I feel. Anakin valued the Jedi, but they didn't value him. They cost him his mother, and they were going to cost him his wife - something he was forbidden from having by same. Palpatine addressed him as a man, and spoke to him "honestly." He catered to his arrogance and his attachments. While he was brooding in the Jedi Council Chamber, he internally asked himself "What would I do to save Padme? What price would I pay?" The simple answer was "Anything."

Anakin is obsessed with power and how to get it. All he ever talks about is being the best, the greatest, the most powerful. Even in TPM: "so good at fixing things;" " I'm the only human who can do it;" "fastest pod ever built." Palpatine offers him a way to acquire more power and he goes after it, regardless of the cost.

There's something going on in these movies that I think is just sailing over a lot of people's heads, because of the kinds of things they're accustomed to, in both other action/adventure movies and real life. Everything Anakin does is all about Anakin. He's a selfish, arrogant, cocky little prick, and he ends up fucking everything up, simply because he is so convinced that only his needs matter.

At the same time, his behavior and attitude are never so far removed (at least not until the climax of ROTS) from James Bond, John Rambo, Barry Bonds or George Bush that the audience is really getting what's going on. Lucas is saying that it's really not so good to be a selfish prick -- but because so many selfish pricks have been held up as heroes/role models in our society, it's a message that many people are missing.

If you go back and watch all three of these movies, you can see what Anakin is about every step of the way. When people say no to him, he's surly and resentful. When people kiss his ass, he's STILL surly and resentful, because he thinks they should have been doing it sooner. That he ends up as a Sith is not "odd" or surprising at all.

Beautifully laid out, Manny.



Exactly. Palpatine knew Maul would distract the Jedi Council from what was really going on. He continued to do that in with the attempts on Padme's life in AOTC, blinding them from what was really going on with his increasing politcal power and Anakin's growing involvement with Padme.

I enjoy both series equally, but I find that the PT has more depth and a much better story. Watching the PT over again, it amazes me the little things that I have missed, after watching ROTS.

Manny- I could agree more. Excellent post.

Ayatollah Krispies- Bravo! You nailed Anakin right on. When people say his turn was too quick, I wonder what movies they were watching and if they even watched the first two.

Excellent post Manny. To me PT is far superior to the OT. It probably has to do with me not having an emotional attachment to the OT films,. I was introduced to SW as an adult and saw both OT and PT with adult eyes so I have no nostalgica factor involved making me like OT more. Those of my friends who were introduced to SW as adults also prefer PT over OT.

My favourite one is ROTS which by far has best acting, script and arch of where the characters are going and why and how the plot is built up and planned out.
Don't get me wrong I love the OT, and it almost pains me to say this but I honestly feel the OT has a lot of unnecessary action scenes that does not to drive the plot forward and has no real depth to all the storylies with the exception of course for Luke and Vader. But whereas the story should have focused on Luke and Vader in the final film, it did anything but. The Luke & Vader storyline was like 35 minutes in ROTJ, and the rest was spent on useless stuff with musical numbers, ewoks, too much time spent in jabba the hutt's palace, too much time spent on secondary storylines with Han Solo etc.

The PT has a far more complex storyline and several ones going on at the same time. You have the story of how a republic turns into an evil empire and how the public accepts that willingly, how a good person turns bad - how he can's escape his desitiny no matter how hard he tries, Obi-Wan going from rigid and strict into a broken man, Padme going from independant and strong person into someone who is totally fooled by the love for her man, how a supposed good order (the jedi council) was so flawed and arrogant it became their own fall.
Also, in the final inslalment on the PT it does what it should od, it focus on what's really important, the opposite of what ROTJ did.

I wouldn't put any of the PT movies anywhere near the OT, but they are good for what they are and in completing Anakin's journey, they succeeded.

My main problem with the PT isn't the story arcs, the characters introduced, or the even the pacing. My problem, and this will remain my problem forever (unless GL goes back and redoes the PT), is the performances; particularly Jake Lloyd's kid-Anakin, Portman's dour, stoned faced politician, and Ahmed Best's goofy rendition of a clumsy JarJar, an alien who clearly has no brain yet saves the day and ultimately becomes a senator (brainless senators? ok, I can accept that one).

The PT just reeks of bad directing. GL can work wonders when it's as a visionary, a producer, and sometimes even as a writer. But his directing skills are non existent and he left a void of performances on the screen during the PT. The PT could been so SO much more, dramatically speaking. Like I said, the story's there, the characters are there, the action's there, but the director's chair was unfortunately left empty.

I agree with you Manny. Although I've always loved the old Star Wars movies more than life, I have to admit that the last time I saw the OT, after ROTS, they felt slightly empty and lifeless compared to the PT. Especially ESB, that almost has nothing to do with the main-story about Anakin.

I will always love the OT more, just because of nostalgia and the fact that they represent the best years of my life. But in many, many ways the PT, and especially Ian McDiarmid's performance (which was crucial for the success of ROTS) is way better than most things in the OT.

The last time I saw ROTJ, which is my favorite film of all, I was actually thinking of Ian should have gone back and redone the voice of Palpatine, since he's THAT much more evil in ROTS (and we all thought that he was as evil as anybody could be in ROTJ) Nobody else, but Darth Vader and Boba Fett, has given me goosebumps purely based on their delivery of lines, like McDiarmid does in ROTS.

The whole movie was about Vader tracking down his son and his friends. At least that's the way I interpret it.

Great post Manny and exactly what I thought about the PT (and ROTS in particular).

To me, Anakins downfall was hinted at in the very first scenes of Jake Lloyd when he gets mad at Padmé for being called a slave. It's his volatile nature and his incredibly deep love for the ones close to him that make him an 'easy' prey for Palpatine.
You could argue, the whole PT is based on Anakins feelings for his mother/Padmé (here, I agree with the Oedipal aspect of the story) and his deep friendship/love for Obi-Wan. Funnily enough, it's said friendships and relationships that make him fall for Palpatines traps.

Becoming Vader, though, was essential for fulfill his destiny. Not the way Palpatine wishes, and not the way the Jedi wish it would be fulfilled. And that's the main thing I absolutely love about the PT. Everything in the SW-universe is now connected and makes so much more sense. Anakin - as the chose one - must become the thing he 'swore to destroy' in order to really destroy the Sith, once and for all in Episode VI.

People being anal about story-glitches and 'bad' dialogues (I didn't like the now-infamous balcony-scene either, but still) fail to see the big picture.

way to totallt grasp what he was saying


Manny I actually think, either because of the actors or the story itself, that Obi Wans and Anakins relationship is so much more tragic than even Anakin and Padme's. Like you said he doesn't want to kill Anakin but he knows his duty, but the scene with him crying and then calming and saying " I have failed you Anakin, I have truly failed you" is just so powerful. I think their story arc was incredibly well done and the emotion shown by Ewan is absolutely grabbing and perfect.

The OT is better scripted, better acted, and has better characters. The OT is more fun to watch. The OT has less cringe-worthy scenes with terrible dialogue. Everything about the OT is better except for the visual effects maybe, but I prefer models and things to CG anyway.

For me, everything about the OT > PT.

I keep forgetting this board is full of Lucas apologists and gushers.

I don't look at the Star Wars films as PT vs. OT. This is really a six part saga, not two seperate trilogies. While both Episodes I and II were not great IMO (I think that Episode II was simply okay while Episode I was just plain bad) I believe that Episode III was the best of the saga. It was the most emotional movie of the six films and really got to the heart of what Star Wars is all about. Episodes IV, V, and VI are all great films but just are not quite as good as Episode III.

I also try to look at these films as objectively as possible (being that I've been a Star Wars nut since birth). I'm not ripping on Episode I but Jar Jar was terrible and in the large scope of things turned out to be a useless character. I really can't say this about any of the main characters in any of the other Episodes.

Also factor in Jake Lloyd's acting, the thin plot (yes, I know that this was supposed to be a character based story but there still should have been a decent plot to keep my attention) and you have a bad movie. Yes, it could have been worse but it should have been better.

Episode II was just okay. Bad editing and the cheesy love story were the main sore points in this film. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a lot better than Episode I but it just didn't flow well at all. I also found myself rolling my eyes during some of the line deliveries (which I've never done with any line in Episodes IV, V, or VI).

Episode III was so great 95% of the time that I'm willing to forgive it for the 5% that it got wrong. The only complaints that I have about this movie are two lines delivered by Padme. They are: "So love has blinded you?" "What?" and groan where my two reactions to that line. Also there's "Hold me like you did by the lake on Naboo". Sorry but it just sounds funny. I can't help but laugh every time I hear that line. The reason I forgive these moments is that they're brief. That and the rest of the movie is so great that you forget about those lines almost right away.

I could go on about Episodes IV, V, and VI but I just think that they're all well done films (go dig up my rankings in "Revisionist Rankings of the Saga" if you want to know how I feel about them).

This is just my opinion. I just try to watch these films and be objective as possible. When I see bad acting I can't just excuse it and say "Hell, it's Star Wars so it's okay". I'm not saying that that's what those of you who love Episodes I or II are doing because I know that we all like different things. But I do know that there are some people out there that do think this way. Just go over to TF.N and you'll see what I mean.

Darth Sidious: Move against the Jedi first. Then you should have no problem bringing the Queen back to Naboo to sign the treaty.

I agree with you, HarpuaFSB.

I would also say that there are those out there that love Episodes I & II who attack anybody who bring up those films apparent flaws. It's almost as if they think that their opinion is more valid than yours is. Most of us here know that's garbage as one opinion can't be better than another.

You do bring up an interesting point regarding people who would forgive Episodes IV-VI for their flaws. Personally, I just really like Episodes IV-VI. Is this because I was practically raised on those Episodes? Probably. Does this mean that I simply overlook their flaws? In my case, no.

The fact of the matter is that Episodes IV-VI did have their flaws. But I think that they were forgivable ones for the most part. Nothing in Episodes IV-VI really ever stood out to me as glaring mistakes (with exception to the new musical scene in Jabba's Palace in ROTJ). I do believe that ROTJ did have the most flaws but it was still a very good film.

Once again it comes down to a matter of taste. I happen to like darker films so Episode III happens to be my favorite followed closely by Episode V. Those who like happier films will probably place Episodes I and IV fairly high on their lists. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Felt inexplicably compelled to come out of the shadows after that one. Look we can all split hairs over opinions (key word) here till we're blue in the face. Let's be perfectly frank: a good majority of the core difference of opinion between those who dig and those who don't dig Episodes I-III simply boils down to indescribable feelings. That intangible something that makes one prefer one thing over the other. Some people can put their feelings into words ("the prequels have horrible acting") better than others ("the originals are just BETTER"). But really there is no such thing as a FACT as to which movie is better than the other. It's all just individual opinion. I think a lot of people on these online forums lose sight of that.

The fact that there ARE so many people that feel that these films are really good completely invalidates those who feel that the originals are FACTUALLY "better" that the new trilogy and vise versa. If the prequel trilogy did in fact somehow suck as a FACT of life, no two ways about it, then everyone would simply hate it. EVERYONE. But that's not the case now is it? As a matter of fact that's not the case with ANY movie or book or band or whathaveyou is it? There'll always be that one guy who really loved Ishtar, or those couple of individuals who think that the Beatles were a bunch of no talent hacks, or even that hipster college kid who feels that the Sopranos is the most overrated piece of crap to get over praised by everyone and their kid sister's goldfish. That last one (and only that last one) would be me.

Does the fact that these individuals' personal opinions stray so far off the beaten path mean that their tastes are somehow inferior to everyone else's? Of course not, and to argue otherwise is arguing against the notion that people should have the freedom to think what they like and not be ostracized for it (so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, for those who think for a sec that I'm condoning bigotry or a philosophy equally reprehensible as well).

So what does any of this have to do with the post I quoted above? Well a friendly debate of opinions is one thing, but it's when someone tries to invalidate someone else's opinion or line of thinking with something along the lines of "anyone who thinks this way is *insert derogatory label here*" that raises my ire.

Insofar as online Star Wars discussions go, labeling people who like the prequels as "gushers" or "Lucas apologists" is simply not cool m'kay? Likewise is labeling those who hate the films as "bashers" or whatever. Goes both ways. Because the aim of this line of argument is to say that "the people whose opinions differ from mine are inferior to me". And that's not true of anyone. NO ONE in any capacity be it in opinnion or taste, is superior or inferior to the other. Humanity is all on the same playing field whether we accept that or not. In other words; we as humanity ALL suck equally.

I have the God given right to think that the Prequels are good, and so do those who think that they're crap. And the people who spout shit like "you're a Lucas apologist" as some kind of automatic defense mechanism against both myself, and others whose opinions differ from theirs rather than have a civil discussion I have one thing to say to:

Suck my genitals shit bird.

It's stupid, infantile bullshit like the whole "basher vs. gusher" thing that made me leave TFN and wander on over here where I saw so much less of it. It's senseless, divisive, childish, and idiotic. And for the record I'll up and defend any "basher" who comes under the same kind of ridiculous internet attack for disliking the films. Like I said, it goes both ways.

The point is it's JUST a fucking film series. To take it so seriously as to personally insult those who don't share your opinion on it is childish. Let it go and get outside more.

And on a final note, if we're gonna have petty little nicknames to label each side of opinion over something as harmless and trivial as a sci-fi fantasy film series, at the very LEAST make an attempt at having them sound reasonably cool. I mean seriously couldn't people do better than shit like "basher" and "gusher"? I mean how fucking fruity can you get? Kindergarten kids could do better. Remember back in the pre Episode I spoiler days when people whined and moaned over names like "Darth Maul", "Darth Sidious" and later on with "Count Dooku" and "Attack of the Clones" etc.? People can rag all they want on Lucas' ability to create cool sounding names, but the so called "fans" have him beat on the "kiddie" scale by a fucking landslide.

And "Lucas apologist" never made any damn sense to me. I mean no disrespect to the guy at all, but who the fuck cares about "apologizing" for George Lucas? I mean who here knows the man personally? This is gonna sound a lot colder than I mean it, but I could give a shit less about the man's filmmaking rep. I only like the films. That's it. I'm a movie buff, and I like the Star Wars movies. All six of 'em.

In anycase, back to lurking I go!

On a quick side note, I almost feel compelled to apologize. In retrospect I find the bulk of my posts in recent months to come off as more standoffish and aggressive than not only I intended them to be, but also than I actually am 97% of the time. I'm typically extremely laid back, but that 3% of me that isn't tends to come out upon witnessing certain pet peeves of mine (obnoxious labeling being a major one). That may explain why I'm a lurker. Normally I'm too laid back to even post, but once in a while when someone says something that pisses me off, I speak up and unload. Perhaps I ought to break that habit. Food for thought.

My humble apologies for the rant, carry on.

Tenma Gou Zankou - Dont apologize your post was right on. Giving people labels with a supposed derogatory meaning for their opinions is about the stupidest thing ever.

To call someone an apologists because they like the prequels is just funny. the person calling someone an apologist assumes that if it wasn't Lucas you wouldn't like the films. Same goes for calling someone a basher, you are assuming that they only bash the films because they aren't the originals.

I think that statement applies much more in the other direction. I always get that feeling from the "OT is God" people here. Somehow it always seems to come across that I'm the fucking idiot because I REALLY, REALLY enjoyed these PT movies, I'm missing something, I don't get it, I don't appreciate good movies, etc.

Trying to even talk about Star Wars with those people (on both sides) is pointless. They're so blinded and self-centered in their own views that they remove all the fun from what is really a pointless debate to begin with.

People like me forgive the flaws in the PT? Of course, just like I forgive the flaws in Jedi. Remove the twenty minutes of Luke, Vader, and the Emporer . . . and TO ME, that movie is almost unwatchable, and BY FAR the worst of all six. In my opinion, of course.

But I honestly think everything works so much better when the saga is looked at as just that--ONE saga.

The reason that I love the PT is becase there is so much more depth. I've rewatched The Phantom Menace a few times now, and that movie has so much going on, on so many different levels. I agree it's more tightly constructed than the OT. Hell, practically the first line of the movie, Obi-Wan's "I feel something elsewhere, elusive" is already setting up things that, on multiple viewings, mean so much more. We get Darth Sidious already starting to take over, the jedi already being blinded by him as he deals right under their noses.

We can talk about the PT much more because there's these little tidbits and lines all over the trilogy that have many more meanings. Story-wise, there's not nearly as many moments in the OT that have the same depth to the lines. I love the OT too, but for completely different reasons.

I agree. It blows my mind whenever I hear someone say that ROTJ is their favorite. And then I remind myself that they're really only talking about one of the subplots, which, FWIW, is handled extremely well. But there's no excusing the fact that the first half-hour of the movie is almost completely unnecessary.

Tenma Gou Zankou gets a standing ovation from me. great post.

I'm not going to go all in depth here, but let me say I agree 100%. For me the PT is much more enjoyable than the OT. I'd love the see the effects totally redone on the OT, it really looks bad now.

Try watching the pre-SEs. I was watching Dr. Gonzo's ANH the other day, and while it is an otherwise exemplary LD-to-DVD conversion, there's no getting around the fact that some of that matte work is absolutely fuckin' painful. The shot of the Falcon coming in for a landing at the rebel base looks as though every element in it is made from cardboard.

QFE

I agree completely it is time that we start viewing the entire series as one long story. In any movie or story there are parts that you want to fast forward through and parts you want to read or watch again. And it tends to be on an individual basis as to what those parts are. Especially in a story that is as long as Star Wars. If you put it all together as one story it is told just as it should be told.

MannyOrtez:

Great Post! I'm glad there are others that view this thing as one long-ass 14 hour movie. I love both trilogies, and, at the end of it all, I'm pleased the PT was made. Don't really give a shit about labels.

I was initially against the TV series (and I'm still sort of ambivalent about it), but, man, I miss spoiler season. Let's hope things get moving again soon. I'll be happy to give give George and LFL the benfit of the doubt.

Here's to Star Wars! :bankheadbounce2:

sprouting out the typical basher line. pathetic. can't get your point across effectively? churn this shit out some more....

send my regards to the fuckwit who coined this phrase.

Today me and a few friends actually sat down and watched Episodes 1-6 (not all of episode 2 however. Seen it about 1000 times when it was on HBO on Demand so we skipped a lot) and I must say I like the idea of considering all 6 episodes one long movie.

IMO The PT and OT both have their own styles and both have their own pros and cons. I love watching Luke in the X-wing blowing up the Death Star. I love the Duel of the Fates. I love when Luke meets Yoda for the first time. I love when Anakin and Obi-Wan fight on Mustafar and I love when the Rebellion strikes on Endor and finally overcomes the evil Empire.

I don't see any need to put it in an ordered list and pick out which ones I love more. Don't see why theres this wide spread need to pick the OT over the PT or the PT over the OT. I love em both.

With the current exception of AotC (need to take a break from that one) I can pop in any Star Wars VHS or DVD and enjoy what I see. PT or OT.

I love Prequels because...

1. Watching the emperor develop.
2. Wishing I was Hayden when watching Ep2 for the first few times.
3. Continuity between the PT and OT
4. Watching the Obiwan/Maul duel in the teaser and in the movie. That was one of the most exciting things in any of the movies.
5. All of the behind the scenes/making of's from the DVD's and SW.com.
6. And of course, waiting in line for the movies and at the Celebrations...

only problem, Sam jackson was the worst casting move in the history of cinema...

To those PT sheep. No one says OT is god. They have their flaws as well but i think in the long run, they are still better movies.

I know that there a lot of people who enjoy the pT. More power to them. I have to say i 'enjoyed' them quite a bit too but overall they are just not good movies.

I think Lucas really is kinda the victim of his own success. He totally missed the point WHAT people like about the OT. And that wasnt only the visual fx.

I mean Ep3 was great and all but already after the 2nd viewing i was like "CGI OVERKILL"...and while some scenes sure were amazing, i cant imagine watching this movie the amounts that ive watched the OT...

Since those don't have actual episode numbers on them I'd say no. While I agree with you that Episodes I and II have serious flaws (see my above posts) I think that it's pretty much undeniable that Lucas made these films as part of the overall saga. Otherwise why have the damn episode numbers? If they were intended to be two seperate trilogies then Lucas wouldn't have even bothered putting episode numbers on them in the first place.

Of course what Lucas intends doesn't always get followed by the public. If you want to believe that these are two seperate trilogies then go right ahead. More power to you. I just happen to agree with Lucas that these six films go together as part of a saga, not two seperate trilogies.

Thanks RageFist. Exactly. I am talking about the 6 in the series labeled as such. I prefer to believe it is one long saga, if someone else wants to only watch either the OT or PT that is up to them.

Right with the difference being that each of the OT movies can stand on its own, the PT cannot, imo.

Yeah Ep3 makes 1 and 2 better but i still cannot watch Ep1 or 2 without wanting to smash my face against the screen....

in the end, it is what it is. Glad its over and i will still buy EP3 on dvd..

I think of the PT as MY star wars. I barely remember the ROTJ theatre release from 1983 because I was very young. I don't have the emotional attachment to the OT like some people who are 30ish might. I love the OT, but the PT was my chance to live the excitement that everyone else got to see the first time around.

I'm sorry you didn't get good movies to go along with that excitement.

Fixed.

Haha....considering it is a prequel trilogy...no wonder it can't stand on it's own, it's trying to compliment the original trilogy....

If people came to accept the differences btwn the OT and PT and didn't confuse being different with being lesser quality, I think the PT would share the OT's reputation.

To me, the funniest thing really is the "lack of character development" complaint. I simply won't listen to that. The PT's plot is much, much more dirven by character. Like in any good movie, the OT's films only tell us the bare minimum of what we need to know about a character in order for the story to work. Anymore "character development" is quite unnecessary. But the plot in the OT is not that character driven, and as a result, we need only learn certain things about Han, Leia and Luke. Han is the swashbuckler who pretends not to care about shit, Leia is feisty, Luke the whiny farmboy. Etc. They are admittedly and unapologetically simple characters. Their traits are perhaps more entertaining and recognizable than those in the PT, but that is b/c the PT has to approach characterization differently. The characters are more subtle and intricate (and yes, they aren't as funny or witty).

So where the PT lacks the awesome Han-Leia banter, you could say the OT lacks a relationship as deep, conflicted and strong as Obi-Wan and Anakin in the PT. Again, its just DIFFERENT, doesn't mean its better or worse. In the PT, the relationships, the characters, they do shape the plot more. As a result, we do have scenes where characters explicitly talk about their relationships, whereas in the OT, the friendships and bonds were pretty much a given. Such as Han and Luke, their friendship just is, it doesn't ebb or flow. Nor is it as strong a bong as Anakin and ObiWan's. Obi-Wan's "I loved you" is the first and only time in all of Star Wars (I think) that love is expressed other than in a romantic connotation.

So, 99% of the time someone says a statement about the PT that they think proves a weakness, they are more than likely just pointing out a way in which it differed from the OT. If people just accepted the differences, they'd come to see that it's beneficial for them to be different in tone and characterization, and that the 6 films together create a very great cinematic experience. How boring would the PT be if it just copied the OT?

Hella. However mediocre some of the material was, there was no getting me to sleep the night before opening day (I would rather be futzing around in blender or photoshop than waiting in line for months to see a movie at midnight as opposed to sometime in the afternoon....). Nor would there be pulling any plug on my gusher-matic for the weeks following the release.

All I can say is that I hope to do similar stuff someday. Hard work, churning out so much content and making it digestible for the rest of the human race.

The PT accomplished what it was meant to do: add depth to the OT. It was great to see the birth of Vader, and unlike some moaners, I actually enjoyed seeing the political workings of the Republic. The scope and grandeur of the PT far outweigh that of the OT, primarily due to better tools at Lucas' disposal.

As has been mentioned, "no character development" is a generic slander people casually toss out as a way to make themselves sound like literary experts. Personally, I could have done without the "character development" that Han Solo went through in ROTJ. He went from smarmy badass to emasculated spectator. I much prefer the arc Anakin follows: annoying brat to whiny adolescent to selfish hero who tries to be noble to evil neophyte.

Acting performances are a wash. Mark Hamill is about as good as Hayden Christiansen, but Hayden can brood with the best of them. Natalie Portman is an iota better than Carrie Fisher. Harrison Ford and Ewan McGregor are about equals, but it felt like Harrison was looser throughout his trilogy. The PT had Ian McDiarmid, however, and his performaces, even when going over the top after getting fried, were the best of the entire saga.

Dialogue has never been a high point in the franchise. "You can write this shit, but you can't say it" applies to both trilogies. If you are going to a SW movie to hear lines worthy of Shakespeare, you are seeing the wrong movie.

As far as which movies could stand on their own, the only one that really holds that priveledge is ANH, primarily because when it was made, there were no concrete plans to make any more. Even ESB, my fave of the saga, could not stand on its own, because it suffers from middle child syndrome....neither a beginning nor an ending.

There's nothing in ANH that wasn't in Forbidden Planet about 20 years earlier. The limitations were Ford's, not Lucas's. This guy had such an impressive resume before ANH that he's an expert on dialogue?

Help me I'm in a haze of LOTR conscienceness..aarrgghhhhh!!!





fucko

Unfortunately, it was through a mouthful of shit as usual.