CoGro, you totally sound like a whiney bitch! And I wholeheartedly agree! I said from preview spoiler report number one that the missing of Qui-Gon leaves a huge gap in the movie and the whole saga. After all he was present in AOTC and his presence and outlook on the force and Anakin's role therein is an important factor in the development of the whole story. The change of attitude and philosophy of the two surviving Jedi in the OT, influenced by Qui-Gon, is one major key to the successful training of Luke Skywalker and the salvation of his father. Bad move George. Will we ever hear a clear-cut explanation by the man himself?

actually, I'd be surprised if it's reincorporated into the dvd version. If lucas makes up his mind about something, his mind is made up. We can hope, but considering we already know Yoda spoke to Qui-Gon, and what he said to him (from the script), do we really need it?

I wouldn't mind if they put it back in, but I wouldn't mind if they didn't either.

Fixed.

The Delegation scenes are very important to the story of RotS, but alas got cut. They essentially set up Padme and the Jedi's betrayal of the Republic that set Anakin looney. I loved how Padme got the Jedi involved and how Palpatine used Mon Mothma to suggest Padme was the one leading the Rebellion.

To be honest, to put them back in, in any sense, would drag the movie down. You'd need to cut out a lot of the Kashyyyk and Utapau scenes and join up the many Senate/Jedi Council scenes.

i'd rather have Kashyyyk and Utapau then the rebellion stuff.

The thing about those scenes is that they kind of developed Bail Organa's character and his motivation. Someone that decides to go off saving Jedi and take Leia should have at least been given those scenes. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

The 'baby-girl' thing was enough motivation for Bail. Face it.

Does he really have to think of the Jedi as potential allies to his political cause earlier on to want to save them from a common threat later?

And the declaration of the Empire scene (especially the thunderous applause) is much scarier and more powerful if you know so little about there being an opposition growing.

I didn't think the formation of the Empire came off as dangerous in the movie. It was just an old man yelling.

Danger is better with fear - and that is what the rebellion scene created, fear.

I'm ok with these lines being cut.

In AOTC, Anakin uses "compassion" as his justification for telling Padme its ok for him to love her.

Also, thoughout ROTS, there's many instances of him showing him conflicted over giving up that compassion (crying). It's something that he seems to hold on to, right up through his death in ROTJ.

In the novel, Yoda makes a comment about rethinking the way Jedi are trained, and perhaps they should do it differently in the future. Theis helps explain Luke's Jedi "boot camp" training in ESB. To me, this part meant a lot. I'm not sure if it was "filmed", but it could easily be added (CGI Yoda, 2-3 lines from Frank Oz, a snippet or two of Obi-Wan nodding & grooming the 'stache). I was very disappointed that this scene was not included.

I'm with the rest of you who dislike the plot hole of Anakin joining the force. Perhaps Yoda & Obi-Wan "met" him at his death and helped him "cross over" (dont you just love all of the " "'s?).

Additionally, after watching ANH again last night, I would love to se a re-writing of the OT novels that would take the PT into consideration and explain things like Obi-Wan's lack of reaction at meeting R2 & C-3PO again, or why he changed his first name instead of his last name while in hiding. Also what was going through the minds of Vader & Kenobi during their duel? Flashbacks, memories, emotions, all of this could make great reading. Oh, and Chewbacca must have known of the hero General Kenobi from the Clone Wars, so the cantina scene could reveal some goodies as well.

Then again, it may all turn up in an issue of Tales.

Could just be because he's the Chosen One™. If the force was responsible for his birth, then simply his re-merging with the force could have granted him the ability to do that, and possibly a whole lot more than the others had in "death".

Ah, since Anakin was created BY the Force, he returned there when he died. Me likes...

We know, yes, but the average person who will watch the saga in order won't. The Qui-Gon scene greatly enhanced that plot point.

But I think if George coulda got Liam to do it, it would be in the movie. And he HAS added things and changed his mind before (PodRace stuff and Taxi shot in TPM, removing Luke's scream in ESB DVD).


And Tern, I really don't think the rebellion scenes would be that nessecary. I mean, we already know this old man yelling is the old man that orchestrated his rise to power and the framing of the Jedi Knights, and now he's been applauded for creating a dictatorship. It works well enough.

THe kind of fear you're looking for, I think, is a reaction from the average characters, something that never has really been typical of the Star Wars style.

Would they have been nice scenes? Sure. But not enough room or time to squeeze them in. And the movie works without them, as does the Rebellion's presumed origin before Episode IV.

As for it fleshing out Bail Organa's character, considering the guy barely appears in Episode II and dies offscreen in IV, I don't think that's a very high priority.

Anyone else looked at the mockup of the RotS DVD insert posted in the DVDRip thread? It lists 12 deleted scenes on disc 2 of the set, completed, as with the other 2 films, for the DVD release. Anyone confirm whether this is the genuine article, or if its a fan-fake?

probably fake, but I haven't seen it.

Yeah, it's fake. It calls the music video "War of the Jedi", rather than "Battle of the Heroes".

Kashyyyk battle should of had a scene with wookies ripping super battle droids arms out of there sockets, would have been a good prelude to Hans lines on the falcon about not upsetting a wookie unless you want your arms ripped out of there sockets

why would he remember appliances? thats all they are. plus, there are many droids that look just like threepio and artoo. plus, obi sort of has a disregard for droids... like they're not really his thing, but he'll use one if he needs to.

Well, I thought there was quite a reaction with R2. They're looking each other in the eyes for a minute and then Obi-Wan called him 'my little friend'. Such longtime companions don't need to discuss their relationship further, even after 20 years of no contact.

He can't really play his recognition of the droids anyway. What would he say? "Hey 3P0, how goes buddy? You don't remember me because your mind was wiped following the epic duel I had with Anakin Skywalk---oops. Hey Luke! Ignore that last one."

I think it can easily be interpreted, if one was watching the movies for the first time in order, that Obi-Wan and R2 remember eachother in Episode IV.

A lot of these "plotholes" people see are only because they've seen the OT before the PT.

After all that time Anakin chided him for not thinking about Artoo in Episode III as sentient, logically he'd remember it if for no other reason than Anakin was always telling him to treat droids as people.

After reading my previous post, I guess my intent really didn't come through properly. I didn't see Obi-Wan's reaction as any type of a plot hole, I was just wondering what may have been going on in his mind when he saw the droids. Maybe he wasn't surprised because the Force told him that Luke and the droids were coming, or he may have known for 18 years that they would meet again.

I feel that events in the OT have taken on a greater, deeper meaning now that we have the PT to attach them.

Also, until I saw ANH again a couple of days ago, I missed the connection of the quaint "Hello, there" from Obi-Wan. Maybe that's how he greets droids (Yeah, I know, I know... Grievous wasn't a droid).

did anyone else think that obi and yoda started referring to palps as emperor a little too early, I may be wrong but I believe they call him that in the jedo temple control room which would've been approx. the time palps was first declaring himself emperor in front of the senate. Not sure if I am correct on this but I remember noticing this at some point in the movie and thinking it was a little off

Excuse my chronology if its off (I haven't seen the film since opening week), but wasn't Bail in the senate when the Empire was being declared? He could have easily filled in Yoda and Obiwan behind the scenes on the Tantive. Especially since we know he was able to contact them via hologram (or whateva they're called).



When watching ANH these days, I can easily interpret Obiwan's reaction to R2 as a "knowing glance" so to speak. What would Luke have thought if Ben and R2 acted like old time buddies? Ben had to be deceptive to get what he needed from Luke and R2 was clever enough not to blow the secret.

Yes - a little annoying that Obi-Wan refers to the Emperor just after the Empire's been declared (during which time they've been at the temple)... and then later, on Mustafar, both Anakin and Obi-Wan refer to Palpatine as 'the Chancellor' - that was really the time to start calling him the Emperor.

Also annoying that Anakin still calls Obi-Wan 'Master' at the start of the movie (so much nicer when he was on a first-name basis), that Anakin and Padme both say 'OH-biwan' instead of 'Obi-WAN' as Vader does, and that Yoda calls him 'Master Kenobi' at the very end when there's only the two of them left and no need for any lingering formality...

But hey, you can explain away anything, I'm happy to drink the kool aid... bring on those deleted scenes

Yoda and Obi-Wan start talking about "Vader" and "Emperor" right after the security hologram when Sidious says, "Now, Lord Vader, go and bring peace to the Empire." If they didn't already know, I figure that was enough for Obi-Wan and Yoda to realize what had happened -- and who was in charge.

Excuse my chronology if its off (I haven't seen the film since opening week), but wasn't Bail in the senate when the Empire was being declared? He could have easily filled in Yoda and Obiwan behind the scenes on the Tantive. Especially since we know he was able to contact them via hologram (or whateva they're called).

Actually no bail is finding out that he is emperor when they are in the jedi temple to disable the recall beacon. The declaration of the empire is happening when obi and yoda are discussing going to kill anakin and palps so it didn't make sense to me for them to refer to him as the emperor. The first time they see bail after the senate is the second time they are on the Tantive after having their confrontations with palps and anakin.

Obi-Wan and Yoda watch a hologram where Sidious mentions the Empire a few seconds before Yoda mentions the Emporer. How are people confused by this? How short of attention spans do you have?

when did anakin ever tell obi-wan to treat doids as people? now you're making things up. there are hundreds/possibly thousands of R2 units across the galaxy and obi-wan is supposed to remember one from 20 years ago? i don't buy it.

I think that Obi-Wan recognized Artoo because he recognized that Luke stumbling into his path was the "will of the Force" and that "there's no such thing as luck."

I also think that Obi-Wan would remember a droid with whom he had gone through so many adventures.

But I am also pretty sure that it doesn't matter.

Personally, I would love to have the scene put back in where the Emperor's royal guards deny Vader access to the throne room. Oh and while their at it, I would really love to see the part where Luke gives up his lightsaber to Vader only to use the force and take it back to beat the crap out of him and cut off his robotic hand.

Oops. Wrong movie. I must have been thinking of one of the other episodes....

I really hate to think about what other scenes throughout the entire saga have been "edited out".

To be honest, I wasn't unhappy about the Qui-Gon cut. The whole force ghost was a mystery in the OT and I'm okay with it being a mytery now. Cutting after Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he will teach him was fine to me, it's as if the audience isn't privy to this information. There are some things I'd rather not have explained to me, and this is one thing I'd like to go unsolved.

But now ask yourself....how does Anakin do it?

It makes no sense at all. If you throw in 'compassion is the key' all of a sudden you've connected the dots and you end up with a much deeper plot point. As it exists, you have a plot hole. I see what you're getting at, I mean, I don't care how Qui-Gon figured it out, let that be a big mystery, but if you're going to mention it at all do it properly and make it work.

Yes, and the 'compassion is the key' element would also explain why most of the Jedi council members are such distant, untouchable and arrogant characters; a flaw that ultimately leads to their destruction - and puts them in sharp contrast to the compassionate Qui-Gon - with the exception of the two surviving council members. And that's the reason of Samuel L. Jackson's "stale" performance in Star Wars, it's what his character requires (and his critics didn't manage to figure out).

As a sidenote; any theories how Palpatine is able to tell his resurrected apprentice that Vader killed Padme? I have my own thoughts about that, what are yours, can Palpatine feel it through the force, is he bluffing, etc.?

He lies to Anakin about everything. I took it as him fueling Vader's anger.

In retrospect, one of the great missteps of ROTJ will be Sidious not telling Luke Vader killed his mother. Something that he obviously would have done had ROTJ been made after ROTS.

But why doesnt Anakin give a moments thought as to HOW Palpatine knows Padmé is dying? A child would figure out that either

1) He's so OBVIOUSLY trying to make me angry. I dont give a fuck what says about my wife. It's just a freak accident that I have dreams of it. I wont act on a Sith Lords assumtions.

2) He's so OBVIOUSLY planted this dream in my mind. Now he's using it to sell me the dark side stuff of saving her. He's fucking NAIVE to believe I would buy it.

Yeah, that would be one of the first conclusions I'd reach. Because that, uh, happens all the time.

I think a lot of people are giving Palpatine more credit than he deserves. I look at it like this - everybody has been using Anakin to the point where he can't trust anybody. He lost his mother after being plagued by nightmares and suddenly he starts having more death nightmares about the one girl he's been in love with since he was 10. While the transition seemed kind of quick in ROTS, he did have his little spat in AOTC where he said someday he will be so powerful that he will even stop people from dying. If anything, I think Anakin is using Palpatine (or at least trying to) just as much as Palpatine is using him.

I agree with CoGro where I think the Emperor is just telling Vader he killed Padme to fuel his anger. It's interesting watching the OT trilogy now believing that Vader has been living the past 20 years thinking that he killed his wife. Also gives a little more meaning as to why Vader says "That name no longer holds any meaning for me." when Luke calls him Anakin. While he had the name Vader before the suit, he was still Anakin to Padme.... when he choked her.

Is that official? I had an impression that Plaps read Anakin's thoughts just like Vader read Luke's thoughts of his sister.

Wow, that's a very good point. The Palpatine we know from the Prequels would have told that to Luke right after Luke reached for his lightsabre to begin the confrontation. And if not then, Palps definately would have told Luke when Luke was having second thoughts about finishing Vader off.

Luke was very hesitant to fight Vader throughout most of their confrontation. Prequel Palps would have made sure Luke was burning with anger, and mentioning Padme's fate would have been just the way to do it. Great point.

Yes, this makes perfect sense. Or maybe Vanakin talked during his delirium and the operation. And in case Padme actually would have survived, Palpatine would've dealt with her one way or another...

As far as seducing Luke: don't forget that Luke can't remember his mother. He has no emotional connection to her:

"Young Jedi, take your lightsaber and strike him down! He is the one who killed your mother!"

"Father, did you really kill her?" What happened? Tell me!"

"Luke, when I was a boy half your age, I met this annoying Gungan whose name escapes me right now and..."


The persons Luke actually has an emotinal connection to are about to die on Endor and in outer space right in front of him, including his... sister...
The final confrontation on the second Death Star still works IMO.

Considering Palpatines skills to throw an entire 1000-year republic off course into his command and his knowledge with the force, it was pretty obvious to me. I mean, either it's that or it's bad writing.

But know you, we're all, uh, different.

There's been no sequence anywhere in any of the movies even remotely suggesting that Palpatine (or any Force user) has the ability to influence the content of another's dreams.

On the other hand, there was a fairly important bit in AOTC demonstrating that Anakin does dream of future events -- which, in turn, is why he's so upset about his dreams of Padme.

But sure, your idea, uh, makes a lot more sense. Fits in with the overall story too. As long as you ignore the overall story, that is.

There's been no sequence anywhere in any of the movies even remotely suggesting that Palpatine can feel dreams through the force either.

And there's certainly been no sequence anywhere in any of the movies even remotely suggesting that Palpatine or Plaguis might have instructed the midiclorians to create Anakin, Still, people – including the producer of the movie – are debating whether this is the case based on a widely interpretable scene in ROTS.

So, unless you avoided the scene in ROTS where Palpatine quite clearly manipulates Anakin with the bate of suggesting that Padmé might die without being told of the dream by Anakin, theres certainly – unless one is blind, deaf and a bit norrowminded – a level of interpretation allowed. Please rationalize the logic that Palpatine can feel dreams through the force but absolutely cannot plant them.

The popularity of this discussion might have something to do with the fact, that Lucas was seriously thinking about including this revelation in the movie. Besides already after TPM a lot of people thought that the idea that Shmi was raped by some Sith is very compelling (I don't know why though) and now they're happy for themselves they were kinda rite and stayed open-minded. Darth Plagueis speculation certainly didn't create any new reasons to seriously debate every far-fetched theory... for to long.



How you go about creating a dream? Is it like creating movies, would Palpatine use some hologram footage of Padme and Obi-Wan or make them fully CGI instead? Are dreams something more then images or they can't be translated to sensory images at all? Reading thoughts, dreams, feelings is something everyone can imagine doing without going into what they are in essence, but I don't see, how planting a self-made dream in somone can be explained. I don't think assuming stuff like that can be described as logical.

Besides, even if Anakin didn't know that, the last moments od Padme's life played exactly, how he dreamed it. So we (the audience) know that were true premonitions.

I appreciate your sincere explanation, but this is a highly individual perspective. I can't see justifying reading someones dreams as more logical than planting any. It's all fantasy, and how planting a dream is practically accomplished shouldn't be a factor here, since creating lightsabers, hovering, force-convincing and jedi-ghosts aren't either.

And also, I dont see Palpatine as a passive mindreader, I view him as extremely aggressive, persuasive and manipulating. Thats why I – logically from that perspective – picture him planting the dream just as he gently and mockingly plants the other lies in Anakins mind: the Jedi counsils lack of faith in him, the attack on the Republic etc.

Still why would you believe in something that's supported by nothing we've seen in any of the 6 movies?
What we have is that Force users can see the future (or, according to Yoda, the possible future) and that you can get the feelings and even thoughts of other force users. Palpatine must have sensed Anakin's attachment to his wife and his fear of losing her and used it to his advantage.

Palpatine ROTS: I can feel your anger.

Sidious ROTJ: I can feel your anger.

Yoda TPM: I sense much fear in you.

Dooku ROTS: I sense much fear in you, Skywalker.

And you're telling me there's no evidence in these movies that force users cant feel character's emotions?

And Sidious, being as powerful in manipulation as he is, wouldn't be able to sense the anguish of a kid he's been testing for 13 years?!

There's a difference between the Sith possibly creating Anakin and Sidious influencing Anakin's dreams. Palpatine actually drops a hint aimed at the audience, not Anakin, that suggests he created Anakin. There is absolutely no evidence that Palpatine influenced Anakin's dreams.