A thought: Did Obi-Wan not disobey the code by allowing himself to become attached to Anakin, his apprentice... his 'brother'? Is it because of this that Obi-Wan couldn't bear to watch his brother in burning in agony? Or that he couldn't bear to finish the job off?

I believe Obi-Wan thought Anakin was as good as dead. And if Yoda had done his job Anakin would have died. Palpatine wouldn't have been able to save him.

I think Obi-Wan's ability to form an attachment to Anakin is something he probably learnt from Qui-Gon. And something Qui-Gon would later teach to Yoda... and Yoda would learn that he and the Jedi were wrong to not allow Anakin to express his feelings for his wife, which ultimatley lead him to the darkside. This is something Yoda takes on in the teaching of Luke... becuase it is Luke love for his sister that really send him over the edge and drives him to destroy Vader.

... or maybe not... whatever.

Your absolutely right, it is Obi-wans attachment to Anakin that leaves Vader alive. Of course had Yoda not let his feelings get in the way in AOTC he could have finished off Dooku or caught him and found out who the sith was and prevented the whole thing. Of course Anakin and Obi-wan would be dead, but the Republic would have survived.

I don't know about that. Sure, Dooku might be dead, but surely Sidious would try to keep the Separatist movement together. With Grievous moving into the picture after Geonosis, that would be doable.

Sidious would be able to carry on the war, framing the Jedi, Order 66, etc. He would just have to find a new apprentice.

I doubt very much Yoda would want to risk sacrificing the 'Chosen One' just to kick Dooku's arse...

I got the impression the loss of Dooku was demoralizing to the separatist leaders.

This is a rather slippery slope to traverse. The Jedi are not against having friends, being close to others, or caring for/wanting to save others. That is part of compassion and being a living being. They simply believe that a person must be cautious and mind that their relationships with others do not become overindulgent attachments that can have negative impacts on their duties or lives. Yoda didn't say to Anakin "care not for anyone you should", but he could see that this relationship of Anakin's was seriously taking it's toll on him. He suggested that Anakin must teach himself to be willing to let go of what he was afraid to lose.

This is also a tenet of Buddhist philosophy (I am guessing Lucas borrowed heavily from that in some instances)...not being attached to things in the physical world in a way that could have negative effects. That obviously doesn't mean that Buddhists aren't allowed to care for people or have friends...just that they recognize the nonpermanence of physical reality and recognize that they must accept that if they want to avoid suffering.

Alluding to the belief that Yoda should have let Obi Wan and Anakin die to kill Dooku is also begging the question...what would the difference between the Jedi and Sith be if they both believed that the ends justified the means (but of course each was convinced of the righteousness of their cause)? This is a valid question...and one not easily answered even in real life situations, but especially a situation in an imaginary world with imaginary characters. My guess is that Yoda made a decision at that moment, and by his decision he showed that there is, in fact, a difference between the Jedi and Sith; the Jedi will always try to save life if at all possible and the Sith will always sacrifice it if it will bring them closer to their goals. On the other hand Yoda could be said to have been selfish by saving his friends and thereby allowing Dooku to escape and continue the war where many more perished, and the Sith could simply be seen as pragmatists who look further ahead at the bigger picture. As in real life, the truth is pretty nebulous and relative.

Exactly the point I was trying to get across. I think it is where the entire old Jedi Order went wrong. When you ask someone not to love so that they can never be hurt, you are asking them to give up their humanity. It was bound to happen sooner or later that a Jedi would turn because he was forced to give up something close to him. I dont believe it wasn't the first time. I believe Dooku turned because he was fed up with the Jedi and felt that Qui-gon's death could have been avoided had the Jedi responded properly to the situation.

Yes, take the Five Remembrance, for instance.



Life is ceaseless change. Denial of this would only bring you fear and confusion. Hence "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering." For a Force user anger and hate means the dark side.

I'm not one to re-hash things or write a dissertation on messageboards, but I do have a comment on the credibility of Anakin's turning.

IMO, it was absolutely fucking perfect. I understand completely how he turns, how long it takes, the conflicts going through his mind as he tries to deal with the hasty decisions he's made, and so on. Anakin had always wanted more, and for quite some time. He knew how powerful he was, and how much more powerful he could become.

Some people who shall remain nameless should go out and see a few classic plays, most notably Macbeth, King Lear and Hamlet beforehand. This story falls in line with all classic tragedies, and as I said before, is absolutely fucking perfect in my opinion. Thats what makes ROTS #1 on my list. Others can nit-pick it to death, but I went to see this movie the way I saw the other five; I brought myself down to the level I was at around 8 years old (not that I was the typical 8-year-old, but thats a whole different can of beans). The 8-year-old in me absolutely LOVES every fucking movie in the series, just as my best friends' 12 and 10 year old boys absolutely love every fucking movie in the series.

I apologize for saying "fucking" all the time, I haven't had any real sex since March.....

Can I say something kinda random? Well I'm going to anyway...

I think the end would have worked better with the implied affair between Obi-Wan and Padme left in. It would have given Anakin more reason to choke Padme... and I always thought his reason was quite thin. It would have worked better if he suspected she was having an affair with Kenobi and also given meaning to the line "LIAR! You were with him!". This is how it played out in the screenplay.

Though it would have taken time to establish Anakin's suspicion of the affair and Palpatines manipulation of it... time we didn't really have. The middle would have become quite drawn out.

I agree. Although maybe so much time was not needed to set it up. I understood from what I read somewhere at the MF that Palpatine dropped a hint at the opera of rumors regarding a Jedi and a Senator, then Anakin drops by Padme's pad and senses Obi-Wan had been there before him. Both scenes hap'd anyhow and would have only needed an extra line or thoughtful pause to make the point.

Padme never hides out and that is the reason I posted the quote from the character ads. She will do anything to get what she wants - she doesn't sit back and let it come to her.

In TPM Padme leaves Naboo to go to Coruscant (an agressive move), then returns to fight on Naboo against the advice of Senator Palpatine (also an agressive move). She makes Qui-Gon take her into Mos Espa and becomes aggressive when he wants to pod-race (Qui-Gon has to put her in her place).

In AotC she is ORDERED to Naboo by Palpatine. You'll remember that she is angry about this and wants to stay in Coruscant for the vote. Later, she returns to Geonosis against the wishes of the Jedi and Chancellor. You mentioned the line "I'm going to save Obi-Wan" - that is totally agressive, not passive. She also asserts her pressure on Anakin over her choice of hiding out.

In terms of relationships, Padme is even more assertive in getting what she wants from Anakin; a family.

To say Padme is passive doesn't make any sense. In essence, Anakin is more passive.

I watched Attack of the Clones again today, and I noticed that the fireplace scene mirrors the scene of Anakin submitting to Palpatine after offing mace.

I think it's cool that at that point in Clones, the point where Anakin is truly afraid that he may end up losing Padme because of his confession, he says, "I will do whatever you ask." Not only that, but he says in almost the exact same way as he does in Sith. It's a great, subtle way to set up the dialogue in Sith, where, confronted with the exact same fear, he reacts in an almost indentical way.

There were other similarities that I saw, but I've forgotten them as I got so caught up in the end of the movie. It makes the fireplace scene that much more important in my eyes, even though I've never really had much of a problem with it before.

No, putz, that's not what I was saying. There's a difference between criticizing something whether positively or negatively and then finding really ignorant things to say just so you can read your own posts. Claiming a plothole because Obi-wan beats Maul but loses to Dooku is an example of such idiocy. It's not a criticism, it's just you, or whoever else, posting for the sake of being a douchebag.

I don't care to justify myself to you, but if you looked around you'd find there's alot of problems I have with the films, but you'd prefer to call me a 'ballwasher' to make your point stronger...fair enough. I can't say I'd expect anything more clever.

EDIT: This thread doesn't need to get off track, if you'd like to continue to try and argue with me, PM me and I'll be happy not to return your message.

Wow. Are people actually saying that? You gotta be fucking kidding me.



EDIT: Nevermind, I just caught up with the last couple of pages of this thread.

Internet message boards are making me embarrassed to admit that I'm a Star Wars fan.

That's no lie. I don't care if someone likes the movie or not. But if they want to call you names because you like it or dislike it is a joke. Everyone has a right to their opinion about any movie. But why because I like a movie am I an apologist. Because someone can come to rational explainations by using the brain that was given to them, without having to have it spelled out does not make one an apologist.

Where in my post did I say that YOU said that.



I was making a general point while responding to your post. So you can't read either eh...you must have a bang up resume.

For the record, Tern said it, whether jokingly or not.


EDIT: It wasn't me who made that 'Titanic on a SW messageboard is gay' comment. You were the genius who came up with the logic that box office intake was representative of how good a movie is. The more you post the more you make yourself look foolish.

I like the fact that those sheep who wanted Yoda to get 'owned' never got their wish.

In regards to the 'voting,' Padme returned to Coruscant against the wishes of the Chancellor, and then after the assassination attempt, tried to stay on - at the risk of her own life. She is also a leader of the opposition, although passive in her road to peace, she is very assertive about getting her point across by putting herself in a position of power.



I didn't say anything about Maul and Obi-Wan...

I said Obi-Wan should not have been able to beat GG with his four lightsabers...GG was taught by Dooku who took two Jedi to beat his one saber. Along comes GG with four sabers, and Dooku training, and suddenly Obi-Wan makes out that it is a simple task even though he failed in his last two attempts with Dooky. Inconsistancy, that's all.

again, I was speaking generally, you did use 'plot hole'.

And moreover, as I pointed out before, Dooku is a powerful Sith Lord, while Grievous has no force ability. Sure he can twirl sabers pretty good, but he doesn't have the guidance of the Force to parry attacks or foresee what Obi-wan's next move is. It's technically correct for Obi to destroy him in a fight. If Obi-wan were to have a hard time fighting Grievous THAT would be rediculous.



Just to end this once and for all, please don't keep this argument going as I don't want to derail this thread further.

I said Titanic was an overrated film, not BAD. I stated that if it's so great then why does nobody ever talk about it? It's a forgotten phenomenon from what I've seen in my life in the last 8 years. Again, that's my opinion on the film.

I never questioned its mass appeal, in fact I even said it was the 'Gone With the Wind' of this generation in the sense that it appealed to young, mature and old audiences. Like 'Gone With the Wind', it was a tragedy/love story, the kind that brings women into the theatre dozens of times, and don't tell me that it wasn't the millions of women that saw the film over and over again that got it to 600 million. Its repeat business was based primarily on that demographic, just as repeat business for Star Wars is based on young males.

And critically, it doesn't matter how the film did. Films that are successfull critically can be bombs at the BO and vise versa. In fact, at the time of its release, initial reviews were not so favourable. I was hesitant to see the film at its release because of both its running time and its mixed reviews. *cue you linking me to rottenomatoes where a total of 60 or so reviews clocks the film at 86 percent.*

Once again you go back to me sucking George's dick....the logic of that deceives me, especially since it would run contrary to your argument of thinking I love everything GL puts his finger on.

Being taught by a good master does not = as good as master. It could be BETTER or considerably worse, in this case, he was just a goofy character who had too much confidence with his training.

Def concur. I think it's more tragic this way. IN the draft according to the making of book, it seems like Obi has a resentment for Anakin. THat really isn't as effective or heartbreaking in my mind. In the film, ObiWan hates every minute of what he is doing it, but does his duty anyways. I think that's what really touched me about Obi-Wan's character, and elevated him to my favorite character in the saga status. The issues of duty and honor Obi Wan faces in EIII are really interesting.

As for who could redeem him, I think ObiWan had a shot. If ObiWan knew why Anakin did what he did, I think he could talk some sense it to him. Obviously, the second Anakin does in Mace, his days as a Jedi are over, but Obi could force him to exile basically. I think Anakin was not at the point yet where he could see what he was doing was wrong. Part of him knows its wrong all along, thats why he looks sad both when killing the younglings, and after slaughtering the separatists. The problem is that the Dark Side and power are seductive.


Ternian -
Padme is certainly strong willed, but her sympathy and her emotions are always the deciding factor in her decision (Padme = compassion in sanskrit, doesn't it?) In EI, it's her sympathy for her people that drive her decision making. She shows great sympathy to Anakin and even Jar Jar in that film. In EII, its her love of Anakin that forces her to the decisions she makes. And in EIII, its her dependent, vulnerable love of Anakin that has her to the point where she is perfectly willing to love a man and go away with him, depsite him having just murdered hundreds of people. She never was cool or rational, though her duty called for it. In EI she shed the monotone, unemotional disguised face both metaphorically and literally. And ever since then, emotions trumped rationalization in her motivation.

Can't we just assume Padme was more sensitive, emotionaly vulnerable in ROTS, because of being pregnant?

True.

I dont remember where I saw it, but someone suggested that Anakin and Padme and really all the Skywalkers share a psychic bond. Anakin and Padme are able to feel each others emotions when Anakin is in the Temple and Padme her apartment, right before Anakin runs out to turn all Sith Like. Could we not at least accept that maybe Padme was feeling Anakins pain and anguish and that at least contributed to her death?

I thought that was pretty insightful, and might have some truth to it. I can't wait til the dvd, so I can hear what Lucas has to say. Of course we will probably hear how they were creating the Surgeon Droid instead of something will enhance the story.

This gels with what Nick Gillard said about the sword fighting during the production of the Phantom Menace about how the Jedi are so good and so in tune to the Force that in these duels every move has only one possible counter-move, etc. [paraphrasing]

The only weakness to the argument is that despite Grevious' inability to use the Force he is apparently so good a fighter that he had been built up as a "Jedi killer" by all of the source material on him (and explored, albeit apocryphally in the Clone Wars series and EU) and supposedly it was a well established reputation. So by that line of reasoning, Kenobi should have had a hard time fighting him since Grevious was supposed to be such a formidable enemy of the Jedi in hand to hand combat, though disappointingly, he didn't show it in the movie.

GG cannot use the force for one, and just because Dooku trained him doesn't mean he is close to as good as dooku is, Obi-Wan waits for his enemy to make a mistake and then uses their mistake to his advantage, Dooku is old and very experianced and doesn't make mistakes.

I hope to hear what Lucas has to say too, but if the other DVD commentaries are any indication, during that and many other important scenes that need explanation, we'll probably hear Ben Burtt droning on and on about how he came up with some obscure sound effect for five minutes instead. That's really frustrating because five minutes is about twice as long as almost any single scene in all of the PT (I guess we partially have him to thank for that too since he handled editing duties).

Ben Burtt shouldn't be allowed to speak on any of the commentary tracks.

GL and Rick should have their own track. Their stuff is the best followed by Rob and the VFX crew.

Or just give Burtt his own track where he can keep racking off all the obscure stories where he was fiddling with some random piece of shit that turned out to be Darth Vader's footsteps. I mean, the guy does a great job, but Christ, he knows how to kill a commentary and documentary.

Although to be fair, the ILM guys do "THAT WAS BLUESCREEN!" on these tracks far too much.

Well, now that Ben has left LFL maybe he won't have time to record a commentary [fingers_crossed].

Yep, Ben is a bore and so are most of the ILM guys. I just remember enjoying Coleman's commentary. He really dives into the mechanics of bringing a digital character to life. Puppets to pixels was great for this reason.

.

That I did. I retract.



I am not arguing that GG is a more powerful Sith Lord or more in tune with the Force...I am just arguing against the four saber vs single saber scenario. Of course we both know that as soon Obi delves into the dark side, he can use the Force to crush GG.

But he doesn't and it's simply saber vs saber, that's all I was saying. But its not really a huge point for me, I actually really enjoyed the fight.

I saw it in The Empire Strikes Back.




It's not simply "saber vs saber." Just because GG has several lightsabers doesn't make him more powerful. In the fight scene(s) between Obi-Wan and GG, Obi-Wan is focusing his energy and concentrating as GG is coming at him with sabers spinning. Obi-Wan does use the Force to guide him in his fight with GG. At one point, he builds up his energy and Force-throws his cyborg ass across the room. And that's not all. GG is a crafty bastard and the fight-chase-fight continues for quite some time until Obi-Wan has to resort to using a blaster.

It's not an inconsistancy, it's just Obi-Wan trying to deal with a very different and difficult foe.

I saw it in Empire as well. The whole statement was a paraphrase of someone else's idea and I did not want to plagerize it. Which is why I said someone suggested, but I don't remember were I saw it. But that is hardly the point of that post.

The point was to suggest that it is possible that Padme was feeling the pain Anakin was in and this may have lent some to her not having any physical problems but yet she was dying.

I wonder how much powerful Grevious would have been if he had the ability to control the Force. Did anyone ever read LoE? I heard they had some stuff in there about giving GG a blood transfusion or something like that with Sifo-Diyas.

That part in AOTC always bothered me because it was so unnecessary. It would have been much easier for Yoda to move Obi-Wan and Anakin out of the way of the falling pipes than to manhandle the pipes with the Force, allowing Dooku to escape.

So yeah, Yoda dropped the ball.

Have you guys learned nothing from the movies? For all Yoda's talk of letting go of your attachments, it was Anakin's attachment to his son, his love, that ultimately won out.

It wasn't Anakin's attachment to Padme that led to his downfall - it was being denied that attachment. Same with his mother. Do you think Anakin would have turned had they left him on Tatooine with his mother? Or brought his mother along? Or went to get her after a week or so?

Yoda let Luke go in ESB because he knew Luke had to go for his friends. Yes, he feared the worst - Luke was not ready to face Vader - but he let him go.

The Jedi were wrong about a great many things.

Coming back after a month-long hiatus, I see a remarkably insightful post. Goooood call. So basically all the Jedi were wrong. That's why they all died. Yep yep.

Except Qui Gon. He was the only one who could see the Yoda and Jedi were idiots and defied them on occasion. And is the reason Yoda gives himself to Qui Gon's teachings at the end of the film...

All hail Qui Gon Jinn!

Yeah. Kind of interesting that Obi Wan's "if you strike me down then I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" is very true for Qui Gon aswell.

That of course is why he knew he would become more powerful.

These are some excellent posts, guys. Really puts everything into perspective.

-V

ad 1. To me, it was more like a feature in Obi-Wans character. He is a defensive and almost perfect Jedi. He won't attack a defenseless enemy, even a Sith.

ad 2. I think Yoda "feels" something is wrong with young Ani. And Obi-Wan just knows it. He tells Padmé flat out "Anakin is the father..."

ad 3. The whole "deathdream about Padmé"-thing stems from Anakins psychotic and volatile character. He pushes himself to the point where he just cannot live without Padmés love.
The dream itself is a manifestation of his desperate love.
In AOTC he admits being "hurt" when Padmés around. Same here - to me, at least. He just can't bring himself to just let his and her love flow and be a "normal" couple.

ad 4. I think Anakin pushes himself way too hard and, thus, believes his own words. He is relieved when Palpatine promises him the bluest of skies because that's what he wants to hear: Become an invincible Jedi and the bestestest of them all and save Padmés life.

Just a quick question for those who have seen the movie in both digital and film versions, how much of a difference is digital over the traditional movie theatre? Is it really as good as I hear? I live in Australia and am no where near a digital theatre.

I've seen the movie a few times, like most MFers. I probably put it third on the list, behind ESB, ANH and ahead of ROTJ, AOTC, TPM.

I have a digital theater like 15 minutes away from me (probably take longer because I don't know the way), but I'm waiting until a little later because its the only digital theater in the whole Bay Area I think. It'll for sure be crowded as hell.

Holy fucking Christ, the digital version is fantastic! I had the opportunity to watch it in Copenhagen/Denmark (just across the bay from Malmoe/Sweden).

I'm amazed. I've never seen a full digital DLP projection at the cinema before. I'm out of words here. The sublime textures. The density of color. The stability. Fuck.

I watched it several times on celluloid and it just sucks oll over the place. One of the times the synch between subtitles and picture were off, resulting in sharp text but blurry images (arrgghh). Other times the focus was fine but the image still looked awful. I'm not sure if the all digital recording suffers more from being telecined to celluloid than a regular recording being scanned to digital and then back. Logic would think the opposite. Maybe Lucas made sure all celluloid versions loocked like crap to easier sell his digital cinema concept?

Anyway. If digital recordings look this good on HD DLP projection I say fuck celluloid.

A question: why doesn't Anakin react to the fact that Palpatine all of a sudden reveals that he can read Anakins dreams of Padmé dying?

Just struck me as strange that Anakin gets angry and ignites his lightsaber with the word "You're the Sith lord!" in response to Palpatine saying that he can same Anakins wife from dying. Wouldn't it be kinda reasonable to ask HOW Palpatine knows that Padmé is going to die?

It seems as a pretty obvious manipulation to first - out of the blue - reveal that he knows what Anakin dreams of, and then blatantly offer a solution to that problem which involves killing all Jedi. Wouldn't Anakin be aware of this naive attempt of Palpatine?

I saw the movie the first day it was out and for about 30 minutes I just could not speak. It just set me back to actually see this movie and the finality of it. I actually became angry because it seemed to me that everyone was using Anakin for their own purposes.

I've backed off a bit from that and now think Anakin did make his own choices although they were at the influence of his feelings for Padme.

One thing that I am confused about is while on Mustafar before Padme arrives there is a scene and in it Anakin is crying. Did he regret his actions? Did he regret murdering the younglings and the Jedi (ok, I don't think anyone would have regretted murdering Nute Gunray).