All of that is irrelevant to Anakin because Palps can "save" Padme. The scales have been tipped, Anakin thinks the Jedi and Palpatine are evil. But you throw into the equation that the Jedi have been holding him back, don't trust him, and the guy that was supposed to be evil has been mentoring and helping him, and to top it off he can save Padme.

That's a no-brainer as far as Anakin's concerned.

I really don't think Anakin thought the Jedi were evil or anything like that, he was just fed up with them. So Palpatine tells him he can get the power of the darkside by killing the Jedi, and that will save Padme. That's two birds with one stone.

The Jedi were finished as soon as Qui-Gon set eyes on Anakin. And 'bout damn time at that.

Anakin definitely thinks the Jedi are evil (he says this during the duel). I was assuming this was the reason why he went and killed them all in the temple. If the real reason he went and killed them was to save Padme, this doesn't really make sense either. How is killing all the Jedi going to save Padme?

Also, as Ternian said, Palpatine doesn't really know how to save Padme.

true Anakin was going against the grain i did think about that. But then how the fuck did palpatine was able to walk down there and rest his hand were his forehead was? Wasn't he at the spot were he was going against the grain? Yes he was higher up but only a few feet.

"Do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme."
-Emperor Palpatine, Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith

Some of Anakins behaviour to Padme in AOTC was damn spooky.
He came off as being some OBSESSED PSYCHO, not a guy in love.
Right after Padme tells not to look at her that way, cause it makes her uncomfortable, Anakin says, 'sorry M'ilady,' ( I think), the look on his face is DAMN CREEPY!

Well that could be the case, since Mace does mention, however briefly, that the Jedi could go into the Senate and takeover momentarily. I might be wrong about that though, but I do remember Mace or someone saying something about fixing the Senate themselves.

I don't think it was a matter of being evil or not in Anakin's case. Well...Mace did try to kill Palpatine and that MIGHT be indicative of being evil, but I'm still not buying the "Jedi are evil" from Anakin. Even though Palpatine was his friend and mentored him, he was THE Sith Lord, he basically started all this crap. The Clone Wars, Dooku, Maul, the death of Qui-Gon all stems from him.

Padme would've never died if Anakin didn't have to go to Mustufar, and Anakin wouldn't had have to if Palpatine hadn't sent him there to deal with the Separatists. And the Seperatists wouldn't even exist had not for Palpatine's plot to takeover the Republic, a very good one at that.

So if you trace it back this is technically Palpatine's fault, the war, everything. Does Anakin know this? I'm sure he does. But the "evil" he's claiming the Jedi to be doesn't matter. It's his pursuit of power. If Yoda told Anakin he knew how to save Padme, then Anakin would've given the green light to Mace to cut his ass down.

It's never been about evil to Anakin, because remember he thinks he did the right thing in killing all the Jedi and wants to takeover the Empire from Palpatine. Anakin is KNOWS this is evil, but he wants power to save Padme, he wants to rule the Empire. And only through tapping into the darkside, which can be hastened by killing the Jedi which adds to his fury, can he save Padme.

It's never been evil with Anakin, it's who has the ability to give me the most power. And Palps made the most enticing offer.



That was a figurative statement. Things in nature don't go from low to high, they go from high to low, down a concentration gradient. Basically Anakin was trying to fight against something he couldn't win. He jumps, he gets cut, he jumps, he gets pushed into the lava, etc...

Ok, well good points. His pursuit of power does make sense. I guess then they really should have donen a better job of showing how he was power hungry and they should have left out the diologue between him and Obi-Wan because it just makes it seem like Anakin is doing all of this becuase the Jedi are evil. Obi-Wan says something like "the Sith are evil", then Anakin says something like "from my point of view the Jedi are evil". These scenes also could have benefitted from some better diologue.

I think it would have had more of an effect and would have made more sense if it concentrated more on Anakin's consumption by the dark side rather than his thinking the Jedi are evil.

But from a certain perspective he did think the Jedi were evil. Mace did try to kill Palpatine, which he didn't think was evil probably, but Palps "had" the key to saving Padme.

But it is his consumption of the dark side that leads him to believe the jedi are evil. He developed a selective memory, excuses for his actions that he himself, over time, believed.

As for the high ground, that's the ideal place to be for battle. No matter what your attacker does, you have the advantage over them.

I've heard that complaint before but don't you think that it's exactly what Lucas is trying to tell us? That Anakin is obsessed with Padme and that's why he does what he does in ROTS. Of course, Lucas might have gone a bit too far so Anakin is not very likable in AOTC and Padme's love seems unbelievable (cutting the family scene doesn't help either).

Actualy, I like quite a bit how that dialogue turned out from the longer version in the script. Obi-Wan starts his last approach to talk some sense into Anakin, but Anakin doesn't care at all, it's not possible for them to talk anymore, for Anakin there's nothing left of their friendship and they end up yelling at each other uncostructive acusations for the sake of it, like in an argument between two complete strangers. I think Obi-Wan really means it with the final "Then you are lost", earlier on he still didn't seem to fully believe, Anakin won't come back to the good side.

The problem here is not just a lack of foreshadowing - it's a complete opposite. Anakin has been shown to be a badass. No doubt about it. If Obi-Wan could manage to not only injure him but take out three limbs then this act needed some foreshadowing. We needed, at some point and even in some very small way, to see Anakin mess up through a similar mistake in the past.

But, like I said, it's not just that we don't get foreshadowing - it's that we establish in the movies that the opposite is true. As has been pointed out, twice Obi-Wan was in a far worse predicament and took out his opponent. Both times his opponent had the 'high ground'.

So, while it's all well and good to quote The Art of War, SW film writing tells us that the high ground is not a disadvantage for a Jedi.

I didn't catch that. That could have been just from the fire. I wouldn't go and say he got his "ass kicked" but he did made a stupid move and payed for it.

He had to end up looking like C3PO after his "accident" in ESB. It wouldn't work differently.

Anakin was cocky and impulsive, while Obi-Wan calm and rational.

The only way Obi-Wan would win the fight, and he was on the defensive for most of it, was for Anakin to make an agressive error. And he did.

Obi was holding back? Perhaps Anakin was holding back because it looked to me like Obi was running for his life.

And Casshern sucked. Sorry, had to be said.

Obi-wans style is naturally more defensive. He stays on the defensive and waits for his opponent to make a mistake. He is a master tactition whereas Anakin is a master swordsman. This is also why Obi-wan was shown to beat Grevious so easily when other Jedi had a hard time. Watch the battle with Grevious again, he studies what Grevious is doing before he ever makes a strike at him. And when he does it stops the spinning blades. He is a defense, strike and back to the defense kind of guy. This is why he beats Anakin.

I thought he beat Anakin because Anakin just kind of jumped at him in a silly way. 6 feet higher and the story might have been different...

Because the script called for it.

cuz lucas sucked
Bottom line obi wan was only shown powerful in the maul/obi fight. Someone said that obi wan is always on the defense. Well he wasn't in that fight. I doubt obi was holding back if anything he was just staying in the fight long enought to wait for anakin to make a mistake. No one holds back knowing someone is more powerfull than you.

Dooku was a more experienced fighter than Anakin that is why. And he didnt make the arrogant mistake Anakin did. So if that happens the better swordsman ends up winning.

cuz lucas sucked
Bottom line obi wan was only shown powerful in the maul/obi fight. Someone said that obi wan is always on the defense. Well he wasn't in that fight. I doubt obi was holding back if anything he was just staying in the fight long enought to wait for anakin to make a mistake. No one holds back knowing someone is more powerfull than you.

Agent Smith -
Just like in sports, some competitors do better against other certain competitors. For instance, like how my Pats destroy Peyton Manning every single time they play, yet Manning own pretty much every team in the league. Dooku just has Obi-Wan's number.

Ternian -



Argh, because he says they will LEARN together by using the Dark Side of the force. Why is this so hard to understand? Plagueis learned to save ppl from dying using a Dark Side Power. Plagueis is a Sith. Therefore, Anakin thinks, to learn to save people, he must learn the Dark Side and become a Sith. It's not illogical at all. Anakin doesn't simply choose btwn Palpy and Mace or Sith v. Jedi, ultimately his choice boils down to Dark Side v Light Side, do you want more power for not, and even if you think you will be using your power for good, that's dark side. And that's what Anakin decides.

How does ROTS not explain the dark side? The dark side is all things selfish, greed, lust for power, and the anger that results from them. And, as ROTS explains, it can be found on a path paved with good intentions.




The point is the Dark Side CONSUMES someone. Anakin chooses to use the Dark Side for rational, somewhat well intended meanings: distrust of the Jedi, trust of Palpy, desire for power, desire to save Padme, etc. etc. All those things tell him that he must choose to use the Dark Side. And once he chooses to use the Dark Side, it's over, he can't just go back to being good. Even if he has rational and justified reasons in his own mind.

"Once you start down that dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

Anakin's path in ROTS is pretty much exactly what Yoda said it would be. I'd think that would make the diehards happy. I'm not sure what you guys were expecting. Would the story really be all that interesting if Anakin were just angry and angered = dark side? The point of the story is how does a person who is fundamentally good, and who is trying to do something fundamentally good, wind up killing younglings, killing separatists, and sucumbing to the Dark Side.

"We meet again at last, when I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master "
The whole point here is that Vader was not as powerful as he thought. His overconfidence was his weakness.

Obi winning by luck would have been horrible. I could just imagine Yoda saying, "powerful Jedi was he, but occasionaly he fell or took a misstep"

I'm tired of acting as a "gusher" or "Lucas defender" and going up aginst "bashers". Can there be a thread about simply discussing the film, its characters, themes, etc. as opposed to discussion about its quality? I can't create topics, I guess thats something new, if so, maybe the mods could make one. Cuz it likely won't happen here.

Anyway, if I were to make one, here are the things I would discuss, obviously, since we are dealing with fictional characters, these are completely subjective, even if Lucas may allude to answers in the Making Of Book:

- Could Obi-Wan simply not bring himself to finish the job? Or did he let Anakin burn out of resentment?

- Do Yoda or Obi-Wan sense why Anakin has sided with Palpy? [to save Padme]? If so, wouldn't they think Anakin was still redeemable that this point?

- Could Anakin still have been redeemed?

- Does Anakin know what he is doing is wrong? Or does he really believes his own justifications?

Those are some of the Q's about the film that interest me most. Not sure why I stand on all of them.

manny and smith... thanks to both ya'll for taking the time to post. If we all agreed it would be a boring forum.

"There are things I cannot do.
I cannot sit when something must be done.
I cannot judge those that are different from me.
There are things I cannot do.
But there are certainly things I will do."

Here we have a girl who returned to Naboo to lead a war against an invasion at the cost of her own life. She went to Geonosis to save Obi-Wan, again at the risk of her own life. She returns to Coruscant to push her vote, again at the cost of her own life. She is not passive at all.

The only possible passive part of her is the ideal to bring about peace through negotiation - and even that she does agressively by making sure she is in situations/roles that help her cause; ie. Queen/Senator.

So here's another sheep question:

Is deformed Palpatine Sidious' true form, like Mcdiarmid said in the latest Insider? Or did Lucas change his mind at some point in post production to make it lightning damage, since even the Making of ROTS book indicates that, at least early on, it was the true form.

I don't agree with that.

So I just got back from seeing my 12th showing of RoTS. It just seems to get better with each viewing. I've realy come to overlook the flaws, just I have the flaws in the OT.

I'm guessing Anakin got that gash on his head when he was tumbling down after getting cut up by Obi-Wan. Rolling all around those rocks must've cut him up at least a bit.

To chime in on Obi-Wan's lightsaber skills...

He can't defeat Count Dooku by himself, but he can defeat GG's four lightsaber attack without hesitation.

That's a plot hole.

Count Dooku...a Sith Lord of the highest caliber
General Grievous....a half alien droid with no ability in the force whatsoever.

You work it out.

Hardly.

Real life comparison. I play street fighter with 2 other friends. Friend A, I can beat easily. He can beat friend B. But friend B, I lose to.

Mysterious, no?

A very different, less precise and patient style than Dooku's, no?

Different styles, different advantages dude.

You ever watch sports? Just because one team is better on paper doesn't mean it's a Win. Situations, environment, it all makes a play into it.

First of all, people are looking far to into this. It's becoming sad actually that someone like me needs to reply to these posts with a rational person's POV and explain how not only are they just fucking movies made for entertainment, but these battles can still be explained by the logic set in the saga.

Fancy moves mean nothing. Darth Maul was a good 'swordsman' per say, but stronger than Dooku....I'd say no. Dooku, not an overly elaborate swordsman would kick Maul's ass (Even writing this makes me feel stupid for replying). You also have to take into account the flaw of the darkside...arrogance, overconfidence. Maul sat there taunting Obi-wan when he full well could've ended things, but instead he had to be an assfuck and play around...and he paid for it. He lost his focus and Obi-wan exploited it...because he was more headstrong. Has NOTHING to do with one's ability to do fancy moves AT ALL. This in turn applies to Obi-wan's confrontation with Grievous and Anakin. Dooku would not be bested so easily. He was strong, focussed and powerful. Anakin was just that much better.

For all your sakes, end this stupid quibble. It makes you look borderline retarded, if not completely so.

Definitely, I had you pegged wrong and I apologize, I know you don't hate the films or anything, in fact I know you probly enjoy them, you are just one of many people who spend a lot more time on the negative than I would. I simply think there should be a thread to discuss the film in a different context. Unfortunately, I can't create threads for some reason. It says only Admins can when I try.

Ok..im going to go out and say thats a plothole. We all know that Anakin never reached his full potential because of his accident. If he never became the vader we know now he would have been more powerful. So for him to say that to Obi wan is irrelavant. UNLESS, he ment by more powerful mentally not physically. In a way "Smarter" than he was was before and not overconfident.

Anybody know how trained soldiers of the Rebel Alliance can be shot and killed by Stormtroopers but a female senator can peg them at will? I'm having problems believing this and it's hindering my enjoyment of the Star Wars trilogy.

My take was that it was Mace deflecting it back that fucked up Palpy's face. It doesn't make sense to me that it would be his true form, nor does it make sense to me that using the Dark Side would derange his face that much. Didn't do it to Dooku nor did it screw up his face in later lightning uses. So, yea, I'm saying Mace's deflections caused it.

I'm gonna say you're reaching there

Christ, since when did we take everything so literally?

Luke took a hefty dose of lightning in Jedi and he looked alright. I say it's his true form.

Since the movies are all done, some people here need to stop posting. It's like they have nothing left to do with their time but think of asinine reasons to criticize the movies to a point it's becoming embarassing both for the idiot that makes the post and the site in general.

Or how about the fact that 3PO and R2 are completely invincible from surrounding crossfire throughout the entire sextet. That Artoo is one ellusive little bastard.

Oh, I could definetly see it being his true form. "Sith" eyes, uber pale skin... Sidious being the ultimate evil, that isn't a stretch. And clearly, judging from the Mcdiarmid interview and the Making of Book, Lucas originally had that to be Sidious' true form that simply came out from using lightning for such a long time, rather than deflected lightning causing it.

Hell, Mcdiarmid even says that originally, Lucas had Sidious switching back to Palpatine after the initial transformation (like many of us originally thought he did WAAY back in the spoiler days). So clearly, there's some weight to it being his true form. The visual dictionary and the novelization both hint it to be.

The problem, of course, is that the movie doesn't give any signs for that being the case, Unless you take Palpatine's psuedo-exhaustion after the lightning standoff as a sign, but that's really unrelated to his face getting fucked up.

Personally, I like the idea it's just his evil manifested at that point. Clearly, Palpatine starts changing in that scene before the transformation (his voice going through darkside puberty). And he's a completely different personality as Sidious.

Infact, that's one thing I really enjoy about the Emperor in this film, the near schizophrenic differences between Palpatine and Sidious.

It would certainly be interesting, but if it is his true form, couldn't he change back? I don't know if he'd want to look so heinous for the Senate. Altho I spose he could be trying to prove the Jedi attacked him.

Yea, i think Sidious again took the opportunity to bend the truth and make himself appear to be the victim

Exactly, he uses it to paint himself a martyr for the Republic.

Apparently in that "Visionaries" graphic novel, one of the stories called "Sithisis" is about Sidious changing into Palpatine for the last time (directly before Episode III).

Clearly the idea that it was Sidious' true form was the idea going into making Episode III. It's just that there's really no explanation of that being in the case in the movie, so it's easily percieved as being Sidious' damaged face.

Of course, and this is microanalyzing now, his whole body transforms, not just his face.

Again, I like the idea that his evil is simply personified at that moment. Which is almost a mix of both ideas.

I believe that Obi-wan could not bring himself to finish the job and he actually thought that Anakin was dead or soon would be. I mean he was in flames when Obi-wan walked away.

I dont think that Obi-wan or Yoda knew why Anakin turned. And I don't believe that Obi-wan felt he was redeemable after his battle with him. I think that Yoda might possibly have held out hope that he would fulfill the prophesy.

I think Padme was the only one with a chance to redeem him. If Obi-wan had not been on the ship with her. She may have talked some sense into him. But I seriously doubt it.

I think that people that are Evil in the way that Anakin and Palpatine are evil rarely see themselves as evil. They believe the end justifies the means. So if it means killing some Jedi, even the younglings etc, to bring peace to the galaxy and get what Anakin wants, then so be it.

As far as the question I keep seeing, Why could Obi-wan beat Anakin, Maul, and Grevious, but not Dooku? The answer is extremely simple. Obi-wan waits for his opponents to makes mistakes. Maul should have just killed him instead of standing there all "I am the best ever", his arrogance got him killed. Grevious is an all out attacker without the force, I would bet that most of the Jedi Masters and Anakin one on one could take him out. Anakin's self confidence his is undoing, he believes that he is more powerful than he is, he makes a mistake of trying to jump over Obi-wan, probably just because Obi-wan says he can't. Dooku is a master swordsman who makes no mistakes in his swordsmanship. Thus wearing down the defenses of Obi-wan. And since he is no doubt more experienced that Maul he knows better than to toy with an opponent when you have them down you finish them off.

Why is that so hard to understand?

if you'd read the novel you'd have a better understanding, you know what Dooku's thinking during the duel and you really get a good idea of what happend and why Anakin was able to take him down.

Ya, I think she could have talked him back but for Obi-Wan. Once he saw Obi-Wan he quit listening.

Also, seemed to me Obi-Wan tried to reason w/ Anakin towards the end of the duel by trying to tell him Sidious was evil...but, by then Anakin was just not having it. When Anakin replies it's the Jedi that are evil, Obi-Wan knows he's lost... and says as much