Yeah, before watching the security recordings they probably watched an episode of Intergalactic Wheel of Fortune and switched to the Ploitical channel...

But yeah, I guess you could explain that Bail told them... but the scene happens directly after Palpatine declares himself Emperor. The thing is, wouldn't it have been easier to have just called him Chancellor or Palpatine or even Sidious during that scene rather than have to explain your way around it? I suppose it comes down to Lucas's 'documentary' style of filmmaking. That is, most of the action taking place in the editing room.

I think it's obvious Yoda knew Anakin had turned. He sensed it just as he sensed the Tusken slaughter and Anakin's emotion's running high on Geonosis. It's obvious he knew in the security room as well as he tells Obi Wan "only pain will you find". He knew. I thought Obi Wan reaction could have been more emotional. Though I liked his "I don't know where to look". There's no way to get outta this one Obi.

In the security recordings Palpatine tells Vader to bring peace to their new Empire. I guess Yoda and Obi thought it would be cool to call him "the Emperor" now, becouse of that.

There is another possibility. Perhaps Palpatine really DOES know how to cheat death and keep people from dying. Telling Anakin that he doesn't know yet is just one more way of trying to keep Anakin under control. That, too, might tie into Vader's line in ROTJ: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must Obey my Master." It's conceivable that Palpatine really is using his knowledge of the Dark Side to keep Anakin alive as Darth Vader.


Palpatine does mention the words "Empire" and "Vader" in the security hologram. Maybe it's too brief, but my guess is that conversation is enough for Yoda and Obi-Wan to put the final pieces of the puzzel together.

ahh, k... I must have missed that. I guess that works then.

Thank you Ternian. This is the entire summation of why Anakin's (unquestioning) fall to the Dark Side is unbelievable for me.

Agreed. Seeing Ki Adi, Aayla, and Plo getting ass-raped was sufficient. But how I would have loved to see Anakin mow down the arrogant Jedi in the temple with the Clone Troopers.

Anakin's totally desperate. And Sidious tells Anakin he must use the dark side in order to learn that power with him. Thus Anakin goes and kills younglins and murders separatists, hoping that it will increase his power so that he can save Padme. Unfortunately, with new power comes lust for power, and the misconception that he is restoring order in the process of gaining power. Get with it people. Does GL really have to come out and say everything explicitly in order for his audience to get it.

You know what else is weird? When Mace is holding his saber to Palpatine's throat, Palpatine keeps asking Anakin for help, saying he's too weak, too weak...but then when Anakin hacks Mace's arm off, suddenly Palpatine has enough strength to fire a lightning strike that sends Mace off about half a mile into the city.

I mean, I don't get it. Does Palpatine just lie all the time or something?

Yeah, basically.

He fakes it in order to get Anakin to make a quick decision to turn on his Master and turn to the Dark Side. I don't see what peoples' problem is with this... it was quite obvious to me.

I agree it was pretty obvious, especially when he literally smiles for the camera before killing Mace.

The only reason Anakin turns is supposedly because Palpatine holds the key to the secret of saving the 'ones you love.' But just before Anakin turns, Palpatine states he doesn't know. The turn is illogical and unbelievable.

This is all clear to me. People who wont understand this seems to not WANT to understand. I talked about Anakins transition to my friends after they'd seen it for the first time, and they arent great fans.

They had no problems with the way it turned around. They read Anakin as desparatetly trying to save Padmé, acting on love. Desperate people will do desparate things.

Wrong. It's right after Anakin says "I will do whatever you ask" that Palpatine says he doesn't know.

And the part you keep conveniently leaving out is that Palpatine continues to dangle the carrot by saying they will discover the secret as long as they work together. The whole point of this bit is that Anakin sincerely believes that Padme will die, and he desperately wants to believe that there's a Sith trick that will prevent her death -- because as far as he knows, there's no Jedi trick. He went to Yoda for advice, and Yoda told him to accept the inevitability of death. The only Sith he knows is Palpatine, so he keeps chasing the carrot.

What I think is much more interesting beyond the surface details of this scene is that when Palpatine says "to cheat death is a power only one has achieved"...I think he's talking about Qui-Gon. I think he's aware that Qui-Gon is still alive within the Force, and he wants to learn the secret as badly as Anakin does.

Qui-Gon is exactly who I thought about as well when Sidious said that. Like, perhaps the reason the Qui-Gon scene with Yoda was cut was to foreshadow that someone had cheated death in the knighting scene and then to have Yoda actually reveal who it was at the end of the movie. Complete speculation of course.

Thats semantics. To me, your not looking at the way it plays out. If you listen to Sidious and look at Anakin, you notice that Sidiuos is not trying to hide this fact. And Anakin is not stupid, is hears what Sidious says. You watch ANAKINS face and you see he's really lost. So, yeah, Sidious has twisted the words. But - knowing all this - Anakin STILL makes upp his mind and obeys to Sidious. Why?

Because, just as everybody in here has been saying and understanding it, he has no other way to go. Going the other way, Padmé will die, but together with Sidous theres HOPE of MAYBE saving Padmé. By not joining Sidious theres NO hope at all.

He doesn't say he doesn't know. He says together they can achieve it. It's insurance that Anakin won't leave him.

Complete speculation of course but it could totally be right.

It's clear that Sidious has an somewhat extensive knowledge of the Force. I mean, he's shrouded the Republic and the Jedi on a fog for three films. Hell, the Jedi even state that their ability to use the Force has diminished.

It is a rather good possibility that he's referring to Jinn there. He tells Anakin in his office when he reveals himself to Anakin that he must get a larger view of the Force. It's also clear that when it comes to the Force, both the Sith and Jedi know enough about both sides of the Force. It's just the Sith of course embrace the Darkside and the Jedi embrace the Light Side.

And it would explain why Lucas cut out the Qui-Gon scene. I think there's another reason as well. But, again, if you remember the scene, when Palpatine states: To cheat death is a power...., he's not directly looking at Anakin. His eyes are sort of searching for an answer to tell Anakin.

And the fact that Anakin asks at the Opera House about is it possible to learn this power and Palpatine states not from a Jedi. Then we get Yoda at the very end stating that one has found the path to immortality without any real evidence to show Obi-Wan is very, very interesting.

It wouldn't surprise me in the DVD commentary that that was Lucas' reasoning to cut the Qui-Gon scene because Sidious was referring to him during the knighting ceromony....

Yeah actually this is one of the few minor quibbles with this movie. I totally agree there is enough evidence there for Yoda and Obi-Wan to put the pieces together. The on screen recognition between Yoda and Obi Wan to show they had put the pieces together though was a little weak. It's not that important. And I think it probably works better than some cheesey scene of realization. But yeah I also felt there was a bit of an unnatural jump to them calling Palpatine the Emperor.

I guess my overall impression is that ROTS is brilliant but there seems to be some little bits missing. Maybe on purpose??

On the plus side...
One of my favorite lines was "Sith Lords are our speciality" - I just love the delivery.

Favorite Touch...
The look on Palpatines face when he is describing the death of Darth Plagueis. Kind of marvelling at the sick irony and I am presuming his own handy work.

Worst line...
"Wait a minute..." when Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Palps get caught in the ray shields.

I've seen that line mentioned in other posts before. What's so bad about it?

Your entire thought is nullified by the fact that Yoda says Qui-Gon has found the path to immortality, not a dark side user. Last I remember, Qui-Gon was born, lived and died a Jedi.

Pretty much every one of your statements is retarded so I'm not sure where to begin.

1) Palpatine never states he doesn't know, he says that they will learn it.
2) He makes this comment AFTER Anakin has verbally pledged alliance.
3) Even if Palpatine explained to Anakin right then and there that he was manipulating the shit out of him, what's Anakin going to do? Pack up and leave, go hang out with Yoda and Obi-Wan and live merrily ever after? He just helped kill the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, his life as a Jedi is over. Even if he refused to side with Palpy, Palpy could just kill him on the spot. The second he cuts off Mace's hand, he has permanently pledged himself to Sidious whether he is fully aware of it or not.
4) Palpy says that only one has learned, but together they can learn, and that in order for Anakin to be strong enough to save her, he must go use the dark side, which explains why he goes and kills younglings and separatists. Anakin didn't just switch over to evil when he kills Mace, which is why we see him crying on the balcony. It was using the dark side that made him want more power, and brought him to the point where he kills Padme and wants to kill Obi.

Edit: On second thought, I probly shouldn't flame him.

I think Ewan is brilliant in this movie. In fact he's been great in the prequels full stop. But that one line knarls me a bit. I'm not sure whether it just sounds out of character, awkward, or seems an unnatural response to the situation. Hey, not that I'll ever be caught in ray shields. How would I know?! Hardly a major quibble.

In general, I think Ewan and Ian excel in this movie. The emperor is brilliant. The little green friend line is so evil and amusing. You can feel his sick gloating delight.

The line it out of place. In the book they talk about how the dark side clouding them or something. But I agree, in the movie it is peculiar that Obi-Wan says this and the way he says it. It's as if there is something more to if, they just don't go into it.

Not that I want to argue about the line, but I was curious, becouse it was quite funny to me. The to that moment unstoppable Jedi are suddenly trapped by this desperate deus-ex-machina device invented in the script to finally capture them and Obi-Wan still comments, how for them there shouldn't have been a problem avoiding it.

I see what you're saying here, but dwelling on the purge any longer would've created a certain amount of desensitization (is that even a real word) for the audience. It is really all about pacing when it comes down to it. The amount of time shown for the purge was enough for the audience to get a grasp of what was happening around the galaxy and the sheer weight of things. If they would've shown another 5 or 10 Jedi being shoot down it would've gotten to the point of being ludicrous and the audience would become detached and unaffected by it.

Also, it allows for a certain amount of imagination by the audience to wonder about the rest of the purge. Personally, I enjoy the movie the most by wondering what is happening is off-screen or a character's mind instead of being rammed with image after image of redundancy.

Just saw it for my 5th time, and all I can say is that it gets better and better with each viewing. I thought Ewan did a great job in the movie, but man, I realized from this time Hayden's acting is done really well too. His dialogue throughout the movie isn't worth noting about as much as his nonverbal communication. If you pay attention to it you can really see his conflict and sadness of what's to come.

That's the key to his role in the movie.



5 or 10 more, yes you're right. I just thought it would've been better if it showed more of Nick Gillard, Shaak Ti, and 1 or 2 more other Jedi. That could've taken probably less than 1 min all together. That's it.

Even with the holo security recordings. It was obviously rushed through. You see 1 second of Anakin fighting Cin Drallig (Nick Gillard), and then 2 seconds later (literally) you see Anakin bowing before the Emperor.

Yes, I suppose showing more of Nick Gillard and Shaak Ti would've been nice for us, but, seeing as how the general audience is well, generally not aware of such cuts, it doesn't affect the flow of the movie for them. That is what should matter in the long run, not seeing someone's favorite Jedi or a fight choreographer’s cameo. Besides, thats what the cut-scenes on the DVD are for.

You're misunderstanding. When Palpatine is talking to Anakin during the opera, yes, he's referring to Plagueis. But after they kill Mace, he says "to cheat death is a power only one has achieved." Obviously that's not Plagueis, because he's dead. If Plagueis really taught his apprentice everything he knew, then he must not have known the secret after all, or there would be more than "only one."

The connection that Jordan and I are making is that Qui-Gon is the one that Palpatine's talking about.

A side note is that this revelation pretty much destroys those shitty Kevin Anderson Jedi Academy books with Exar Kun.

???



Yes, but Palpatine tells Anakin he knows HOW to save Padme - and that is the SOLE reason why Anakin kills Mace. Without this, his choice is totally out of character. Also, Palpatine implies that the Jedi know this trick but are unwilling to allow Anakin to learn it.




Palpatine doesn't know. He SAYS he doesn't know. Anakin doesn't need to join him. His character would suggest to kill Sidious on the spot. You're saying that he has no other way to go, but he does...either way, after Palps is killed, Padme will never be saved.

Why does Palpatine need to learn it if he already knows it?



No, he doesn't....its just before.

3) Even if Palpatine explained to Anakin right then and there that he was manipulating the shit out of him, what's Anakin going to do? Pack up and leave, go hang out with Yoda and Obi-Wan and live merrily ever after? He just helped kill the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, his life as a Jedi is over. Even if he refused to side with Palpy, Palpy could just kill him on the spot. The second he cuts off Mace's hand, he has permanently pledged himself to Sidious whether he is fully aware of it or not.

Why wouldn't he hang out with Yoda? No one knows what he did to Mace and he did with the Tuskens - killed them and went about his business like it never happened.



You have no conception of what the Dark Side is about...but thats not your fault.

Why would he mention Qui-Gon, when Anakin asks him to save Padme's life? And is Qui-Gon really that important in the story to have so many references? This concept makes no sense to me.

He didn't mention Qui-Gon. He mentioned that only one other learned the power to cheat death. We learn at the end that Qui-Gon learned to cheat death. Is it such a leap to believe Palpatine was aware of this, given how much else he appears to be aware of? Of course he's not going to tell Anakin that a JEDI figured it out...

There's something confusing about what I said? That's exactly what Anakin says: "I will do whatever you ask." Then he follows up by asking Palpatine to help him save Padme, at which point Palpatine says that only one other has learned the secret.



Why would he kill the only person who's willing to help him? I guess it's my turn for ???

I know the exact quote. And Palpatine is clearly answering Anakin's plea to help him save Padme. I don't have anything against Palpatine being aware of Qui-Gon still floating around, but he didn't cheat death in the traditional sense of the phrase. Even if his spirit retained a bit of autonomy after dying, that's afterlife already, not the kind of unnatural immotrality the Sith want. If we ignoring all this still assume Palpatine is refering to Qui-Gon, it still hardly connects to what Anakin asks Palpatine. Qui-Gon is out of place here. I think Palpatine can only be refering to Plegieus and there's nothing more to it.

sar·casm (sär'kăz'əm) pronunciation
n.

1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.

Tern re-read the script because it specifically states that Palpatine tells Anakin that they need to work together to know the power to cheat death AFTER Anakin pledges himself to Palpatine - unless you don't consider 'I will do whatever you ask' pledging.

Besides does Palpatine ever specifically state that he knows the power to cheat death. He states that through the dark side you can achieve this power or through me you can achieve this power, but does he ever state 'I know' how to save Padme. Looking through the script the answer appears to be no.

Finally from my interpretation (and a few others including Manny) once Anakin cuts off Mace's hand he's fucked. He can't turn back regardless of what Palpatine says thereafter. Palpatine still remains the carrot that Anakin is clinging to in order to save Padme. Why would Anakin kill the carrot if they might be a chance that Palpatine is right, that the reunied embracement of the darkside does bring a power to cheat death?

Remember the Darth Plagueis story. "He was SO POWERFUL AND WISE...he could keep the one's he cared about from dying". From Anakin's point of view the constant fulfilment of power (which the Jedi forbid) is the only way to obtain Darth Plagueis's ability to stop people from dying. In this sense, Palpatine's words are not contradictory but rather reiterate statements made earlier.

The person Palpy's talking about that was able to escape death wasn't Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon didn't escape death. He fucking died at the hands of Darth Maul.

But the question remains, who the hell is he talking about? Great storytelling there, Lucas.

Darth Plagueis

Ah, so it was a lie that Plagueis was killed in his sleep then?

Darth Plegieus.... or Syfo-Dyas....... Wait, weren't they the same person?

My interpretation was that Plagueis was able to cheat death until ironically he was killed in his sleep by his apprentice (Palpatine/Sidious).

That's just the way I understood it, though. I could be way off.

I love the fact that this has been kept somewhat of a mystery instead of being "explained" in black and white like the middle chapter of some Agatha Christie shit.

Plagueis was killed in his sleep. He also learned to cheat death. The irony is that he could not stop his own death. You can make an argument for the "one who cheated death" to be Qui-Gon, but if you believe it's Plaguies he's referring to, everything makes perfect sense.

It's really not that confusing. Everyone's warping their minds with conspiracy theories and twisted logic and completely missing what's right on the surface. No one is at all confused, except for fans like us who've spent way to long anyalyzing the up inflection in the third word of the Opera scene.

In my opinion.

EDIT: Also, Yoda says that Qui-Gon has achieved the secret to immortality. That sure as fuck sounds like he believes Qui-Gon has cheated death, from his point of view. I'm not sure what the truth is, and that's why I love the way it's constructed.

Yeah, I think that, after helping killing Mace, he now knows for sure he fucked up as a Jedi Knight ("I'm not the Jedi Knight I was supposed to be."), killing Palpatine and lying to everyone he just came too late to save Mace, wouldn't change that and he still wouldn't have the power to save Padme.

It's like in ROTJ Luke wouldn't forgive himself killing his father if he ultimatly did it and the only reason for him to live after that would be to save his friends, which the Emperor has hoped to use in turning him in a similiar way as he did use Padme in turning Anakin, I think.

I guess, there are certain choices after which you can't be the good guy anymore (even if you have still some good in you).

+ killing Palpatine in this kind of moment of moral breakdown could prove to be quite a challenge

What makes you think that?

No, they're not, but that's EU territory.

I could be wrong, but I don't think any of the action scenes are going to be shown. I think most of it is politics (petition of the 2000 scenes) and General Grievous. But, I do HOPE extra action is shown!

Does anybody know for sure?

I was just joking about Lucas' confusing storytelling.

Personaly I think the important facts of the story are preety obvious in how they are supposed to be understood and the disturbing possibilities with Plegieus, Syfo-Dyas, Qui-Gon's post-TPM status, Anakin's conception etc. are just for fun and don't really affect the core of the story. So I'm against looking at them as possible hidden explenations to situations that don't really have any direct connections with them.

In my drunken state...

It seems like some of the posts seem to be suggesting that Qui Gon has some relation to the dark side. For me the key point here was nothing but the irony. The real power that Anakin sought could in fact be achieved through the Jedi. That was a power that even Yoda did not fully understand. Anakin wanted to retain his relationships physically - which goes hand in hand with Yoda's comment in ESB about Jedi not being about crude matter.

Yes, makes it all the more sad. He had no patience. Obi-Wan told him to be patient, he told Padme in so many words he knew he was f-ing up by stating something like, " I'm not the jedi I should be" and still Sidious lured him over. Can be hard to know when to leave well enough alone. A little patience and more training and he might have found his answers in the Jedi way.

If only Qui Gon could have ghost spoke to him. But, then Luke didnt listen to ghost Kenobi and left for Bespin.