Roberts Im close to changing mine to that from:
1. ESB
2. ANH
3. ROTS
4. ROTJ
5. TPM
6. AOTC

I was watching TPM last night with some of my buds showing it to them for the first time, I intend to show them all 6 in order, and I tried to watch it from their perspective. All they know is the Darth Vader breathing and "I am your father," just the pop-culture mumbo.

TPM really just set the tone and at least tried to explain everything that the movie presented. It explained the many aspects from the OT briefly, and reiterated plot points very, very clearly over and over again. If you look at the dialouge, many debates and conversations are repeated almost 3-4x. I think its a good thing though as it tries to present what people might not know about the world of Star Wars from the OT in a very compact and presentable form to prepare them for Episode III.

I ranked each movie 1-5 with a list of things I like and hated about the movies and compared them in that fashion. (So they all got the same scrutiny).

I looked at:
Battles
Light saber Battles
Overall story
Acting
Characters & Development
Annoyances
Individual Film (How it stands by itself)


Here it is.

1. Revenge of the Sith - 4.3
2/3 Return of the Jedi / Empire Strikes Back - Tied 4.1
4. Attack of the Clones - 2.9
5. A New Hope - 2.6
6. The Phantom Menace - 2.3

I watch actually surprised cause I use to think ANH was the best one. And I like the TPM because of the Maul Scenes, but compaired to everything else, they could not stand up.

Over all I love all the Star Wars Movies, and I will watch them in order 1-6.

I agree. When the time comes for me to introduce Star Wars to somebody new (like my kids or something) I think i would probably show them in that order as well. Part of the fun of the saga has been having our perceptions changed when watching them in that order, and taking a step back afterwards saying "wow, thats kinda cool".

I've also considered this order for the first time viewer. The pros: secrets preserved (except for Leia being Luke's sister) and ANH is still a better intro to the saga than TPM. The cons: TPM might look lame after ESB, a viewer can get confused with going back and forth between the trilogies or by the end of ESB simply would be more interested in finding out Solo's fate than in the backstory. And, well, we're used to think about OT's revelations but PT also has its own share of surprizes. Hm... so many choices...

I'd show webdoc 7 before the X-Mas special.

Does that include all 3 versions of the original trilogy?

Your going to make him read them all? Sounds like a dictatorship to me.. oh my - what am I doing quoting Attack of the Clones!?!

You're making fun of me!

Wow. This thread has really gotten off track.

RIPkenobi's avatar didn't help, either.

ANAKIN: (sarcastic) Oh no, I'd be much too frightened to
tease a Senator.



edit: yes, it's gay and i couldn't resist.

That really is an interesting way to show the trilogy. I'm personally just not a fan of showing the films as is 1-6, and I wouldnt want to show them 6,1,4,2,5,3 to fuck with them. I might end up showing my kids IV-V-VI, and wait a while, then I-II-CloneWars-III.

I agree with almost everything you've said. My bad, I thought the argument was that compared to the films that came out in '77 Star Wars was infinitely better...

Like you said, I too found Jedi amazing when I was a kid and first saw it... It was the one I'd watch almost every Saturday morning instead of cartoons, it was the one I found most exciting. But as I grew up I recognized its flaws and realised Empire and A New Hope were far superior. I agree too that the pace is severely interupted with the Special Editions... and, in fact, the SE is much more like the style of the PT... in that we get a lot more establishing shots which really, in my opinion, we don't need.

When Menace came out in '99 I was 12. I was not anticipating it... I thought it looked silly with the double bladed saber and goofy characters. But when I did finally see it, 3 weeks after release I loved it. But again, as I grew I decided it was not as good as the originals.. and not as good as it should be.

After going to Clones's opening night I did actually feel satisfied... but that feeling died quickly. In my opinion it has far too many flaws and not nearly enough redeemable qualities to make it a rewatchable film. And nothing really happens... or at least, not enough happens.

Try getting that past a young boy who hasn't seen a full-blown ground battle, an ocean planet, or a speeder chase thru Coruscant. That stuff made the movie for me, even if livejournal.com/user/podracer327 and look-at-how-noble-I-am never got a case of the "fuck-it's" when they decided to start flinging disjointed overtures at eachother.

God gave mankind the >>| button for a reason.

In line with this thought of revisionism, check out this interview posted at Rolling Stone.com this week. It is an archived interview with Lucas from May 1977.

It is very interesting to see how much Lucas has changed in some ways and how much he's still EXACTLY the same in others!

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/ ... egion=blob

ESB
ANH
ROTS
AOTC
TPM
ROTJ
No mistake people, Jedi IS written last. I love the scenes with Luke and Vader, the confrontation between Palpatine,Vader and Luke, the rescue of Han from Jabba and Luke returning to Yoda. But not much else, there is so much BLAH stuff in between. They made a KLUTZ of Han, brought back the deathstar and yes, EWOKS! I never liked them, even as an 11 year old kid. Jedi was really a disappointing end to the saga for me.

I'll bite. No explanation, because it's al tl, dr anyways:

1) ROTS
2) ROTJ
3) AOTC
4) ESB
5) ANH
6) TPM

I think the Phantom Menace is one of the films that has really aged well, and seems so much better when viewed with the entire saga. I agree with Agent Smith, this film just feels so more Star Warsy than the other prequals (understanding that this statement really makes no logical sense). Jar Jar actually makes me laugh. He makes some great facial expressions and has a lot of moments that are actually quite hilarious.

And throw me in on the Qui-Gon and Tatooine lovefest. I've always loved those scenes and appreciated how Tatooine has always been the location that's let the story breath, which some people seem to hate, but I think really makes Menace and Hope shine.

Clones may be the messiest of the movies, but there are so many great moments--speeder chase, Kamino, the whole end--that make me love this movie.



Not to harp on your opinion, but this I thought this part of the film was excellently done. The opera scene is complete perfection and I loved the exchanges between Anakin and Obi-wan, especially when Obi-wan asks him to spy on the chancellor. I thought it really set up everyone's character great and actually look forward to that stuff AS MUCH AS the action scenes.

Like conclusions, don't you?

Ok I actually decided to watch each movie in a row. TPM and AOTC is much better now to me after seeing ROTS. If u just watch them in order it wont suck as much. Each of the PT makes each one seem so important by things they have played in it. Its like they can't be one without the other to show us things and understand how tragic for Anakin to turn to the dark side. ROTJ is much much better to me now than ESB. I quess now that i already knew luke father is vader it isn't such a shock as it was when i was little. I just want to skip to the climax between vader/emperor/luke to see if luke turns to the darkside as well or anakin turns to the good side. I just changed my order now

1. ROTS/ROTJ
2. ESB
3. TPM/AOTC
3. ANH

1. A New Hope
2. The Phantom Menace
3. Revenge of the Sith
4. The Empire Strikes Back
5. Return of the Jedi
6. Attack of the Clones

While I certainly understand where most fans are coming from in regards their appreciation for "Empire," Lucas' direction of the image, (which was "Clones'" saving grace) where he places the camera, the choices made in the editing and his use of Burtt's sound design in Episodes I, III, and IV sets them apart from the other entries in the series if only for their audio/visual depth and complexity.

I'm back, I feel like I missed quite a lot, though. Bootleg???

Anyway, I'll give a detailed review of ROTS sometime in the I've seen it thread, not that anyone cares, but just for fun.

I never thought a movie would top ESB in my opinion, but I'm pretty sure ROTS did, only seen it twice, but still. It was remarkable. It was unquestionably Lucas best filmmaking, the most dramatic and emotionally powerful Star Wars, and I'm pretty much ready to say that it was the best. Even better than ESB. It was just beautifully crafted, amazingly well shot, just really really great editing, and the acting was probably hte best seen in a Star Wars movie. Ewan and Ian were just fantastic, Hayden held his own, and Natalie for the first time lived up to my expectations of her. There were moments of perfunctory, clunky dialogue, but I felt they were really few and far between. And I found me and my brothers quoting ROTS all week, something that never happened with TPM and AOTC. I'll just say it, the dialogue was good. It really was.

I have to see it again before I flat out say that its the best SW, but I'm pretty sure that's where it's going to land. And the reception it's getting, at least from the people I know, is great. About 3/4 people I talk to say this is the best SW and they were really moved by it.



EDIT....oh right, the rankings:

1.ROTS
2.ESB
3.ANH
4.AOTC
5.TPM
6.ROTJ

3 and 4 are essentially tied, 5 and 6 are essentially tied, and ROTS is only narrowly above ESB.

ROTJ
ROTS
ESB
ANH
AOTC
TPM

I think ROTJ is the most emotional movie of the entire saga. I have never minded the ewoks. Also someone complained about the speeder chase, but I love that scene. I also love the Jabba scenes at the beginning. I don't see what's not to like about the movie other than maybe Ewoks, which don't even compare to the travesty that is Jar_Jar. I also think the Luke/Vader/Emporer scene might be my favorite scene of any movie ever.

The reasons I like ROTS are pretty similar to the reasons I like ROTJ. It was an incredibly emotional movie and never let up. There were also so many lightsaber battles, which I love.

ESB used to be my least favorite movie as a child. I just found the whole Dagobah scenes to me really boring. The more I watch this movie the more I like it. Also, now that I'm older, I'm able to appreciate many of the things that this movie had that some of the others didn't. I have always loved Vader/Luke fight in this movie.

ANH is great because it is the only movie that stands alone. It has a lot of great scenes. However, there are some parts of the movie that I just don't like. I thought the awards ceremony at the end was extremely lame. There was also a good deal of cheesy dialogue in this movie(it rivaled AOTC imo).

I love AOTC overall, but there are a lot of scenes that are painful to watch. Sometimes I just want to fast forward to the arena part and watch the rest. A lot of the love scenes are extremely corny and some last way too long(see fireplace scene). I really enjoyed the Kamino scene and the space battle with Obi-wan and Jango. Seeing Yoda fight may have been the highlight of the entire saga for me. I always loved him in the OT and couldn't wait for him to fight. When I finally saw it, I was simply amazed. From the arena on, it may be my favorite 30 minute segment of the entire saga.

I honestly don't see how anyone could put TPM any higher than last on their list. There were so many awful parts. The whole pod race thing was basically useless, and those announcers made me want to shoot myself. I know the actor who played Anakin was only 8, but he was truly awful. And then there's Jar-Jar which was quite posisbly the most annoying person/creature to ever be filmed. I still don't understand why he's in the first 2 movies. TPM just doesn't get good until the last 30 minutes. I really wish Lucas just expanded on everything in episodes 2 and 3. TPM could be shortened to 30 minutes to allow the other movies to expand. I would have liked a bigger backstory on some of the characters like Palpatine, Dooku, and especially Grevious.

The movies on this list are all pretty close. The biggest gaps are between ANH/AOTC and AOTC/TPM.

ESB
ROTS
AOTC
ROTJ
ANH
TPM

I saw them all during their initial theatrical runs, beginning when I was 3. And for me at least, saying TPM is the worst Star Wars movie is hardly an insult.

1. ESB - I love almost every scene in this movie except the tauntuan/wampa cave. Once Luke escapes the cave it's all good (even tho his saber sounds like it powers of but is clearly still on). I also think that showing Vader get on his shuttle and leave Bespin really butchered the escape from Cloud City. But every scene is magic and the revelation is THE moment of the entire saga.

2. ROTS - This could move up after the DVD is released and I've had time to digest it. The imagery is wonderful and the story is tight (I honestly buy into the turn). I do find myself wanting some parts in that were cut (Qui-Gon, Petition of the 2000) and wanting stuff that is in cut (hair brush, dream sequences) and that is what drops it to 2nd (for now?).

3.ANH - This was tough because ANH had been my favorite of all until I got a little older and could follow ESB better. This is a fun and rip-roaring movie but I think that if you are going to redo special effects of a scene, redo all of them. The Battle of Yavin goes from clean and crisp to old and dated. Greedo shooting first - WTF. But Obi-Wan makes the show and I still watch it quite frequently.

4. ROTJ - I loved it as a kid (it was the first movie I saw in a theater) but as I grew up some parts wear on me. The dead spot is when the group is captured by Ewoks, I frequently skip past it. But the Battle above Endor is the best space battle on film. I still get jacked up from the view inside the MF cockpit when the TIEs are coming at you. And Palpatine/Vader/Luke - 'nuff said.

5. AOTC - I really enjoyed this movie. It helped that the first time I saw it the theater was cheering and clapping at all the high points. The love story is about as clunky and cheesy as you can get and drags the film down. I always thought the picture was either blurry or overbright. But the scenes on Kamino and the last half-hour more than make up for it. You can also really see Palpatine start majorly bending people over.

6. TPM - I don't have a lot of negative feelings toward this movie, but it has one major drawback - bad humor mostly by Jar-Jar. I didn't mind Jar-Jar that much but the stupid ass slapstick 'humor' just pisses me off. Stepping in shit, having an animal fart in your face, and having a droid stuck on your foot yet still managing to kill enemies is border-line insulting. Jar-Jar is a part of the story (He made the motion to give emergency powers to the Chancellor) but that stuff is terrible. Jake Lloyd needed a cattle prod up his ass in some of those scenes. The opening sequence on the TF ship is great fun, watching Jedi kick all sorts of ass. Anything with Qui-Gon, Maul, and Obi-Wan was good. I also like the Watto character. I almost thought he loved Anakin more in TPM than Padme did in AOTC.

How did non hardcore fan find the movie?

Awesome! I've always suspected it's the hardcore fans that like to bitch and nitpick. This movie sux cuz Qui-Gon is not in it! So it seems that ROTS works pretty well as a standalone movie?

Every casual fan I know that disliked the prequels still going to see this one. Not to mention hardcore fans. Talk about masochism

That's pretty drastic

Attachments lead to the dark side

Only a sith deals in absolutes.

Wow I am amazed that so many people have empire so far down on their lists.
1. Empire-the last 30 minutes are the most gratifying in the series too bad rots ruins the “I am your father” moment. The chewie yell when han is frozen, priceless
2. JedI- the only one I saw in the theatre of the original tril (besides the se) has sentimental value, get past the ewoks the redemption at the end is brilliant
3. Sith- best saber fights, it has its bad moments I am ok with the no part but cant stand the Frankenstein bit, the movie could have been a masterpiece if it was stretched out to 3 hrs and incorporated some more of the book
4. Clones- yes some of the dialogue is shit but the yoda - dooko fight is classic- Ani is a little whiny but we begin to see his inner demons and the bobo fett back story we have wanted to see since empire
5. New hope - yes it’s the original but damn the acting sucks people complain Ani is whiny luke you just wanna slap The new jaba scene makes me cringe- they better fix that in the next DVD release as well as Han shooting second. But now that we have seen the pt the Vader-obi wan fight is horrible. Yes I know the limitations they had back then but if dookoo can kick ass there is no reason obi wan cant. Lets get a cg alec
6. Menace - I like this movie but cant get past jar jar. That fucker makes me cringe. Yes maul looks bad ass but don’t think that he lives up to his looks, and george gives up the whole mystery of who the sith lord is for anybody new to the franchise with the close up of palpatine at the end

I hate to say it, but I agree on the AHN duel. Knowing what we know now, these guys last moments together… there should be a bit more, I dunno, fury in the fight. “The circle is now complete” line IS a classic, but the last time Vader saw Obi-Wan HE WAS ON FIRE! There should have been a more rip-roaring fight, that’s all I’m sayin’...

Anakin isn’t that old. And after seeing General Grievous, I think Vader can still pull off the moves when he has to, even if he is in an iron lung. And Dooku showed us that if the force is with you that you can still whup ass into your sixties or seventies. Obi-Wan isn’t so old either, if we go by the timeline. He just looks old from living in a harsh climate (I might just be pulling that out of my ass, but it’s as good as any reason), and he is a master of the Jedi arts, one of THE best with a lightsaber. I know the epic duel is a classic, but after what we’ve seen them do, it seems like all they were doing in ANH is hitting sticks together…
That’s all.

I'm doing the same thing. Anyone who doesn't like ROTS is not with me, and therefore is my enemy.

The PT is misunderstood, laregely b/c a lot of the Star Wars goes well over the heads of its fanbase.

People might think Lucas has changed from 30 years ago, but he hasn't. He still has the same strengths and weaknesses as a filmmaker. He's a huge paradox: independent filmmaker who makes the biggest blockbusters; B movie popcorn style moviemaker, yet tells story as epic and relevant as Shakespeare.

Ultimately, what I love about Lucas is that he doesn't give a shit what his fans want, he just goes and makes the films he wants to make, and tells the story he wants to tell, the way he wants to tell it. Frankly, after 10 years of reading Star Wars fan boards, the average Star Wars fan doesn't know shit about film, and despite all the backlash GL has received for the PT, I'm pretty confident it will one day share a similar reception as the OT has. The PT is actually better constructed in a lot of ways and deeper in a lot of ways. Hopefully in time, people will see that and also see that the 6 Star Wars films when viewed as one saga is one pretty amazing piece of storytelling.

The movie is from 1977. When that movie came out people were going nuts because that fight between Vader and Obi-Wan was so amazing. In 20 years, people are going to be looking back and saying Anakin and Obi-Wan's duel from ROTS looks cheesy. Thats something we all have to deal with. If you go as far as adding a cg Alec in there, than why stop there? Hell, Vader and Lukes fight at the end of ROTJ should be the biggest of them all so why not change that too?

Don't get me wrong, I know what you're saying. But making those kinds of changes, in my opinion, is too much. Personally, I look at the ANH duel like this - Obi-Wan isn't there to win the fight. Killing Vader would be pointless, so he's just there to get Luke in the game because ultimatly it will all come down to Luke and Vader.

Yeah, and I get what you're saying. I suppose you could say Vader held back because Obi-Wan didn't give him any reason to go apeshit. Obi fought with restraint, so did Vader, neither one turned up the duel to full power like in ROTS. I can see that…

I agree. The final fight with Luke and Vader still gives me chills, but the Mustafar scene actually gets tears. Hayden is redeemed.

When on the message boards, do as the messageboarders do:

1) A NEW HOPE - I fell in love with Star Wars because of this film. I love the scene of LUKE looking out onto the twin suns sunset with that stirring music accompanying the moment. This scene gets me everytime.

2) THE PHANTOM MENACE - The pod racing, Darth Maul, the fact that George Lucas' universe has beauty and color - a dramatic change from the cold mechanical and industrial black and white universe of the OT. This film sets the stage for the other 5 to follow. I love those goofy looking battle droids, the classic looking Naboo starfighters, and the awesome wardrobes of AMIDALA...

3) THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK - Excellent film. This film brought in strong character development and DARTH VADER at his best! And of course it has that truly great ending "I am your father!" Beautiful! Truly, this was without questions one of the greatest endings in cinematic history!

4) REVENGE OF THE SITH - Finally we get to see the Clone Wars and ANAKIN becoming DARTH VADER. A visually stunning film which really ties everything together nicely. The trilogy ends on a high note!

5) RETURN OF THE JEDI - ANAKIN is redeemed and a pretty good film. Personally I did not care for the EWOKS and Carrie Fisher's acting, but the lightsaber duel between LUKE and VADER was good.

6) ATTACK OF THE CLONES - I loved the beginning sequences of the Clone Wars and the return to the Homestead on Tatooine. I didn't care much for the scripting of the love stuff between ANAKIN and PADME, but at least she looked hot in her white space suite!

Every single post of yours is stupid.

Not to mention the fact that you spend your time on an Episode III messageboard even though you clearly dislike the movies. Your posts are focussed on belittling people who actually enjoy the flicks.

Your logic baffles me.

Get out of here Agent Smith. This board is turning into tf.n for christs sake.

I really wanted to start a new thread basically in response to the sentiments in MVerta's going away message. He is a much more popular poster than I'll ever be, and I'll admit to thinking he is a cool guy and all, but not only was that post the most self righteous piece of shit I've ever seen on the internet, it was one of the more asinine. I want to talk about this notion that GL has changed as a filmmaker. Sure, he's grown, of course he's changed, but is he really all that different? Has he really raped our childhood in some way? Was revising the OT really such a bad thing? Was creating a PT so awful?

"You taught me to set my ego aside, and listen to my audience. " - MVerta.

Um, Lucas from day one has been an auteur concerned only with his vision. Since when has he listened to his audience? And why should he? He's an artist, and artists make art for their own sake, and if what they express happens to touch other people, good, if not, so be it. But if an artist tries to please people and listen to an audience, then they will be a fucking failure. He has collaborators he trusts, friends, colleagues, but he doesn't care what Star Wars fans or a general audience really want in his films.

GL's style of filmmaking has never really changed. As a writer, he struggles with clunky dialogue. As a director, he is able to combine the objective, pragmatic eye of a documentarian with the understanding of how expressive, implicit means of manipulating composition, lighting and color affect the viewer, an understanding that comes only in being a master of imagery, mythology, and a student of art. As an editor, he beautifully juxtaposes images and has an inate ability of knowing just how a shot affects its predecessor; he also can take his own themes and characters for granted, and cut out necessary scenes.

He has his strengths and his weaknesses, and they have always been there. I could go on and on, but really in MVerta's post I see what has hurt the reaction to the PT so much. A kid who saw the OT without the ability to objectively analyze the films, and become cognizant of what they were, and who the director was. And a kid who grew up to become someone who was able to imagine what he envisioned the PT to be like, get hellbent on seeing that vision, and get pissed off when his vision wasn't put on screen. Someone who would come to recognize the flaws in Lucas' style of filmmaking, filled with a disillusionment which prevents them from seeing the overriding positives GL has.

These movies work so well for kids because kids react to images. They don't give a rats ass about dialogue, and they can probably watch a silent movie and follow the story better than adults. At the end of the day, these movies are as close to silent movies as any modern film is. The story, the characters, the themes, they are all told through the use of manipulation of the image and of edititing. George Lucas is an incredibly intelligent intellectual, who is very concerend with mythology and themes of human nature. He took those themes, put his own spin on it, and delivered it to us in the form of popcorn B movie serial style flicks. And with that vehicle for his delivery comes the cheesy nature of that style genre, and with him at the helm came a tin ear for dialogue and a love for cheesy moments. Personally, I always dug the cheese. Sure, the PT might have some miscues and fuckups, and if Lucas had handed over some of the control of the films to outside screenwriters or directors, they might not be there. But why shoudl he? It's his fucking vision and his fucking movies, he shouldn't give a shit what people think. Like any good artist, he's making these for himself, expressing something deep within him that no one else can understand or try to comprehend. I won't defend every aspect of the PT, I don't think TPM or AOTC are as good as ESB and ANH, but I do think that despite some errors, the PT holds its own with the OT, and in a lot of ways, exceeds its predecessor. Without a doubt, it makes the Star Wars saga incredibly more interesting. I feel bad for the nitpickers who are too fucking self righetous to let themselves enjoy these films.

End massive rant. I know no one probly read it and if they do I'll just get shat on for calling out a poster who isn't even going to post here again but I feel it had to be done.

Keeping it brief --

I recently moved ROTS to the top of my list, because the movie fucking crushes me every time I see it. I've always believed that great cinema is any film that elicits powerful emotion beyond entertainment value.

I have seen ROTS 4 times now, and there are scenes whose marriage of imagery and musical score tug at my heart like the fleeting breaths of a dying loved one in a hospice gurney.

I've got many other reason for my rankings, but that is another story...

*cue Basil Poledorus sturm and drang*

Right on. Thank God Episode III is being received well "critically." I was starting to get so fucking sick of people trying to shit on me because I actually enjoyed the prequals, as if their opinions somehow dictated the way I should view MY entertainment.

I tried to like mverta, and he made a lot of interesting posts, but I cannot understand people who are GENUINELY bitter over the way a film turned out.

And I read all your shit Manny, you usually say whatever's on my mind, but you do it so much better.

Good call. You think people would want to enjoy them, rather then go out of their way to stress out about them.

MANNYORTEZ & JPETERS430 - Right on guys! If we see & allow ourselves to enjoy STAR WARS for what they are rather than blowing the small things that we don't happen to agree with way out of proportion, then we can continue to be entetertained an moved by these films that have been a part of our lives for many years to come!

Some fans just have such a huge sense of ownership. It's rather ironic that the same fans who criticize Lucas for following his vision are the same ones that are bitter their vision and their wishes weren't on screen. If we objectively view TPM, AOTC, and ROTS as films without worrying about what we thought they should have in them, I think there is something enjoyable in everyone of them for any Star Wars fan. Sure, both TPM and AOTC have a couple glaring weak spots as films, but it's not going to keep me up at night. I still watch those movies as often as the originals.

Good for you, you named two classic movies. You're so special. Star Wars are deep stories, there is no question. Funny you bring up the Seventh Seal, and 8 1/2, which I think was one of Lucas "required viewings" for his cast and crew before ANH. Bergman, Fellini, these filmmakers choose to confront themes and issues head on. You think GL isn't aware of these guys? He is interested in the same issues they are. But with GL, these themes are wrapped in the package of a very thin, cheesy, B movie package, so assclowns like yourself don't think they are deep. If you look beneath the surface, you'll see there is a lot to Star Wars, I don't think anyone can deny that at this point.

If we wanted to point out similar flaws in the OT, we could, but I'd rather not, b/c I don't like to have to take an apologist type tone. And there is a difference btwn nitpicker and objective. I'm aware when Lucas has fucked up, I think if you've read my posts you'd know that. I acknowledge these mistakes. However, I'm not a bitter shithead about it.

The Lucas "required viewing" Fellini's movie was "Satyricon".

The OT has flaws just as the prequels, the thing is, we've just come to accept/overlook them.

Let me clarify my position Agent Smith - I'm not trying to compare Lucas to Bergman or any director of that caliber. But on teh same measure, no one is going to call Tolkien one of the greatest writers of his age. Tolkien had poor structure, wasn't really a novelist. Yet why are Star Wars and Lord of hte Rings probably the two most engrained stories in our current culture, years after both of their respective releases? The answer is they both create their own mythology, and tap into the things Campbell, Jung, etc. talk about. Very few stories in recent memory do that. ANd thats what separates Star Wars from any sci fi movie. And I think thats one of the reasons so many of us are obsessed w SW. They transcend culture, generation, gender, language, etc., things that all prevent Bergman and Felinni, much greater directors than Lucas, from having a lasting impact on society. It is why Star Wars and LOTR will live on for a long time.

THe question I have is, if you dont like the movies, why do you come here and post bitchyass posts all the time.

I think after you've become attached to a movie, the "flaws" can be even enjoyed the same as the rest of it.

It's not like the movies have an important purpose to fulfil (unless you believe in education or saving the good taste for future generations), so you can let go of all the criticism and easily adjust your point of view of a film you like overall to fuly appreciate it together with its harmless flaws.

Does anyone of you do that besides me?