That's not a plot hole. After Palpatine's dissapointing revelation Anakin still believed that there's such a power and only through the dark side can it be learned. Why did he believe that, if everything he ever heard about it came from Palpatine? Well, that's not entirely true. He says years earlier in AOTC that someday he will be able to save people from dying. I guess he could feel ituitivly that it is possible to achieve the ability to control the Force to such extent. Or perheps this wasn't intuition, just a crazy dream he had ever since his mother died and Palpatine found out about it just like he found out about his premonitions concerning Padme and invented the whole Plegueis story to fuck with his mind.

Sidious implies he knows how to save Padme when Anakin learns Palps=Sidious. That is why Anakin doesn't kill him; he is hoping the Jedi arrest him, so he can learn the power.

But it is implied by Palpatine that the Jedi do know this power but are unwilling to tell Anakin about it. And lets not forget that the Sith are not to be trusted (the Law of Jedi), and Anakin trusts him. Either it is a plot hole in the bigger picture or is supposed to make Anakin an absolute idiot.

Anakin's response to his turn is just as odd as his turn: he calls the Jedi evil. It makes so sense what-so-ever.

Palpatine never implies that the jedi are not teaching Anakin how to keep people from dying.

He only tells Anakin there are things about the Force the Jedi aren't telling him(the Dark Side) and that it could lead him to Plaqieus' discovery of eternal life. Anakin needs Palpatine to teach him those very things. You are correct that Anakin was a fool to believe him, but his love made him blind.(I know you liked that scene right?)

Exactly. When you really think about it, Anakin is still in a bit of conflict until he finds out that Padme's dead. However, rationally speaking, he's still deceived by a lie and was suckered into it by being close friends with Palpatine. There is still some good in him, he just thinks he's doing the right thing for himself and Padme at the moment. That's what makes it a tragic story.

And we all know that he's a very power-hungry person as well. Being Sidious' right-hand man obviously enables him with more power and authority then him being on the council as a Jedi Knight and not a Master. In his own way, Anakin is having revenge by doing this.

I noticed that some people are complaining ever since the movie came out. Notice that this discussion did not come about while the script was out?...

As a audience member, its hard to buy this because, so far in the Saga, we have been told that the Jedi cannot trust the Sith.

We also have to buy that he wants to go against the Jedi, which is hard because he advocated for Mace to bring Palpatine to trial because it 'was the Jedi way.' If Anakin had no care for the Jedi, he would have just walked in, killed Mace and declared his Sith allegience - which would have been WAY more plausible.

Reading it and seeing it is entirely different I think. I have to say when I read it I was wondering if it would work but when you see it you can see he really spends the entire movie turning. He makes a bad choice that seals his fate halfway through but the actual turn to the dark side takes the entire movie. I mean I'm not saying you don't see it but that would be my response to the topic is all.

Reading what people thought about ROTJ in 83 though, it seems clear to me that trying to explain some pretty basic stuff to certain people is a complete waste of time. There are always going to be those who either just don't get it (though they will vehemently say they do) or just have completely zany ideas .

How does this strengthen Padme's character? She's a complete wuss throughout ROTS.

The separatist scene is one of my favourite scenes because it fleshes out Padme and Anakin's character. Padme is starting to doubt exactly who she is fighting for; democracy or dictatorship. It's well delivered by Natalie as the type of conversation that a husband and wife would have. There is no way in hell that Amidala would tell anybody what she tells Anakin: it sets up trust.

It also moves the plot forward by having Anakin think that Padme has doubts - which makes him feel insecure and eventually leads him to force choke her later on.

Like the picnic scene, it is an intimate scene that fleshes out character and moves the plot along, which is the reason I consider it one of the best.

I think that after helping Palpatine with Mace, Anakin tries really hard to change his "point-of-view", so he won't feel so guilty about what he is doeing.

It's actually more like a bunch of exposition that really isn't needed. It's also one of the clunkier scenes in episode 3. That discussion does not lead to her force choke at all. I shouldn't have to explain that. What do you mean Padme wouldn't tell anyone what she tells Anakin? She voices the same concerns in the scenes that were cut, which you wanted back in! It has nothing to do with showing trust between the two. Why else would she start a rebellion with the delegation of 2000 or whoever it was? If you think that conversation sounds like a real one between a husband and wife I'm not sure what to say. It's a goofy scene regardless of any "plot point" that it's really not moving forward.

So I state clearly, that scene has no character development, no real importance to the plot (unless we are supposed to learn that Padme is headed off to football practice right after i.e. her costume) and is done in an awkward manner. I don't think I've ever had a conversation that sounded like that in my life. Whether it was my family, girlfriend or friends.

I wonder, do you understand what expositional dialogue is and why it's a no no? I mean I still like all the star wars movies and will defend all of them but only for the reasons they deserve. As far as the picnic scene goes the only thing you get out of that is Anakin's views on dictatorship, so he has obviously been fed some crap by palpatine. But that lasts about 5% of the time as the rest of the scene is pretty silly. Legislative youth program? Very cute dreamy eyes? yes "classic" really comes to mind on that one.

It plants a seed of doubt in Anakin's mind - that she has the ability not to see the same vision as his.

Amidala would NEVER yield to the suggestion she is on the wrong side of the war - NEVER. In the cut scenes, Padme has major hesitations about joining the Rebellion - she does not suggest she is on the wrong sid eof the war! Amidala has always been a leading member of the Loyalists and a strong believer of the Republic, any suggestion otherwise would cause major unrest in the Senate and would be totally out of character.

These are the kind of conversations you have with people you trust; telling them things you wouldn't tell other people.



The picnic scene is awesome because it is a simple conversation, said with nonchalance, yet has dire consequences for the bigger picture. It is through this scene that we see Palpatine's influence on Anakin during the last ten years of his development, and how Anakin is easily influenced. We see Anakin's jealously and also his more human side.

Character, plot movement.

Sorry, I didn't mean the conversation itself had consequences - my bad.

I agree that the conversation outside the bedroom suggests that idea of influence, but it can also be taken as naivety. It is not until the picnic when Padme challenges Anakin's ideas that we find Anakin clearly trying to explain something, we now know, he really doesn't understand - rather than Obi-Wan's view of the nature of politics against Anakin's view of Palpatine's doings in a mentoring situation. It is a scene that clearly defines Anakin as being under the influence of someone else.

I don't know if you can say nothing came of it because in RotS something does come from it. Essentially, Anakin never saw himself as the person who could force people into choosing what they want, yet by the end of RotS he does (he tries to get Padme to help him lead his Empire).

To me, Padme's packing scene was more about mentorship and power, but I don't really get what you mean by including this scene in your reply, to be honest.

Oh yeah, and I am not including the Shaak riding adventure.


EDIT: Also, the scene plays directly against the 'separatist' scene in RotS.

I like the picnic scene...a lot...

Me too (the conversation part). It looks gorgeous and is the only one where the actors seem relaxed for a change. The family scene is also great. They should have kept it and got rid of the dinner scene and that awful conversation with Queen Jamilla. It adds nothing to the story and Anakin acts like a jerk.

I agree. People (especially guys - for obvious reasons usually blame Christensen but I personally think he's ok as an awkward lovestruck teen. He's actually doing rather well considering some of the dialogue he had to deal with. She, on the other hand, isn't even trying in most of the scenes. It's like she doesn't take this eriously. She's definitely better in ROTS - whether it's an acting coach or more emotional content that helped.

I am with Tern. I think that Anakin's fall to the dark side was a little weak. Palpatine repeatedly states that (paraphrasing) "Only through me can you save the one you love" and "I have the power to save your wife" etc. Then Anakin dismembers Mace (who moans like a fucking pussy. moaning even more than Luke on Bespin) watches Palpatine scream "Unlimited power!" and blow him out the window. After a few seconds of "What have I done?" where I was thinking ooh we're gonna get some genuine man vs. self here, Anakin just sort of submits in a mindnumbingly bizarre way to Palpatine. I mean Palpy just straight out says, "The power to cheat death was only learned by one but if we work together we'll figure it out" & not even a second of "Wait a minute pal you really led me on here" from Anakin? Is the Chosen One truly this dense? I mean it's not like he has a lifetime of meditation and leisure to come up with this power. If Anakin's apparition is going to come true - and Anakin certainly believes this - he has a few days at best to figure this power out. I am not certain how much time this movie covers chronogically but it sure seems to me that Padme is in "due any day now" mode by the beginning of the film. There is no time for dark side of the Force 101 with Palpadious to figure out Plagueis's power. He needs this power yesterday!

For me this did not ruin the movie as it did for Ternian but it did leave a sour taste in my mouth somewhat. While I enjoyed the movie overall it was very disappointing to watch as Anakin didn't question a single thing about Palpatine. He questions Padme's views in the picnic scene. He questions Obi Wan repeatedly, he questions himself, he questions the Jedi Council but everything Palpatine tells him is Gospel? Talk about inconsistency of character here!

Another hole to look at is that Anakin never once reasons, ok this is all a big fraud by Palpatine for his own gain. He fakes his capture when he easily could have escaped and played the "for the good of the people" card for his own gain as chancellor. Didn't Anakin wonder for a second, wait a minute this guy is the all powerful Sith Lord and he is manipulating EVERYTHING including me, my wife, the Council, the Separatists for his own gain? In the end, no one really had more inside scoop on Palpatine than Anakin (Mas Amedda and Sly Moore don't count for the sake of this point;) )

I have a major problem with this. I know that GL had to turn Anakin in basically 90 minutes (or your money back) in "Sith" but I felt shortshrifted here.

Oh and one more thing did anyone else notice the shitty mixing job on this film? The first time I saw it I just assumed it was a bad sound system at the theater but after a second viewing at a theater known for its superior presentation I am convinced that some amateur dicksmack mixed the sound for this movie. It is just poor...

was this noticeable to anyone else at the very beginning? as soon as the scroll faded there was a huge wave or distortion in the sound. to the point where my gf leaned over and asked if i thought there was something wrong w/ the speakers.

See I think your missing something and that is the fact that even though he finds out Palpatine is the Sith Lord they have been hunting, Palpatine is the only one that hasn't asked him to do anything against his nature at that point.

Anakin is extremely attached to those he loves, and as such is extremely loyal to him. Did everyone miss the scene when Obi-wan told Anakin the Jedi wanted him to spy on his friend Palpatine. Or when Padme asked Anakin to try and talk Palpatine into a democratic solution.

The point is that is why Anakin trusts Palpatine even after he finds out he is a Sith. Palpatine never asked Anakin to go against his nature. He always fed his ego and told him the things he wanted to hear. To Anakin Palpatine was the only one that understood him.

Actually Palpatine did ask Anakin to do something against his nature. Which was to leave Obi-wan for dead. But when Anakin objects Palpatine doesn't push it.

Anakin has more respect for Palpatine than for the other because Palpatine doesn't ask anything from him. However, the real trajedy is that Palpatine is the one asking for everything from him. It is really brilliant, you just have to look deeper.

In the end Anakin knows he has been duped, which is shown after the slaughter of the Seperatist, but believes it is to late for him. Which of course he relates to Luke later.

One other point that makes the turn believable. In the beginning of the movie he kills Dooku, who is unarmed and defenseless. He feels immediately guilty about it and knows that it was the wrong thing to do. That he should be better than that as a Jedi.

So after listening to Palpatine tell him how the Jedi are corrupt he walks in to see Mace about to kill Palpatine. In Anakin's eyes he is seeing what he did earlier and it is enough to give him pause and realize that the Jedi do have their problems and that maybe Palpatine is right.

Throw in the fact he wants to save Padme and it is just too much for him to take. He snaps and starts down a road he can't turn back from. Or at least he believes he can't.

It's Tom Meyers, who butchered the 2004 DVD's, and for the same reason: The guy wacks off to sound effects, at the expense of music. The best mixers know how to balance sound design and music, no matter how dense, so that each gets its time up front. Now admittedly, the music was so heavily edited, and so poorly pieced together that I'm surprised Williams isn't in the clock tower at this point, but it's not his fault. I wonder if people realize that the Anakin/Sidous/Mace confrontation would've been about a billion times more compelling with music during the height of it. Would've helped to cover up Sam Jackson's embarrasing AHHHH. Not that it would help, Tom Meyers would just turn the music down. Compared to Rydstrom's mixes for 1 and 2, the RotS mix isn't just amateur, it's coffee-getting-intern quality.

_Mike







1

Ok, that explanation is just peachy until you see THREE DEAD JEDI BODIES on the Chancellor's office floor. Didn't Anakin notice this? Would you be inclined to think, hmm poor old Palpy just slaughtered 3 of the best swordsmen in the order, perhaps Mace was in a desperate struggle for his life.

The point is, he does not question anything Palpatine feeds him, ever and this is inconsistent with his character and ultimately for this viewer, a letdown in story telling.

Mike's dead on.

The mix needs to be fixed.

After seeing it a few times now though, I'll say the music doesn't bother me as much as AOTC did except for about 3 scenes. Overall, I think the prequels could have benefited greatly from better music tracking. I know it won't be done, but it's my wish that it's redone for the next release, likely to be on the next format.

The music, as Mike stated, was a huge disappointment. Everything was written in context of the scene JW was composing for. To see how some of that shit was thrown in there randomly was cringe-worthy. In the first 20 minutes of the movie I felt uneasy as there was no music to drive the film along. The other 5 movies had music almost in every scene unless it was used as a dramatic effect. In this case, I felt naked without the music in the scene as it didn't drive the scene making it seem slower than it really was.

Listening to the score and then seeing the movie really threw me off at some parts. Oh well, I still liked the movie overall.

EDIT: As CoGro said, a remix or rescore would be masterful. A score composed to the FINAL edit would make the prequels so much better than they already are.

OKay it is still peachy because Anakin watched Dooku kill how many Jedi in Attack of the Clones? And he still knew it was wrong for a Jedi to kill an unarmed man. Perhaps Mace was in a desperate struggle for his life, however Anakin was now there and had Mace tried to arrest Sidious and Sidious went on the offensive again, it is plausible and probable that Anakin would have done the right thing and helped Mace. Instead Mace is not going to let Sidious live no matter what, which plays to what Palpatine has been telling Anakin for the entire movie. Anakin falls into the snare that Sidious had set for him.

He doesn't question anything Palpatine tells him, because he has never had reason to. Palpatine never tried to limit him the way Obi-wan or the council did. What reason does he have to question Palpatine?

Because Palpatine comes out of the closet in the previous scene and fesses up to Anakin about being a Sith Lord. If that level of deception doesn't shake your faith in someone you trusted to be a good man what will? After such a stunning admission it is time to question him, pronto.

Anakin's faith in the Jedi is "shaken" after they give him what he feels to be a morally questionable assignment but his faith in Palpatine is unshaken after Palpatine makes a morally questionable (if being an evil Sith Lord is "morally questionable" - I'm being generous) admission. This doesn't make sense.

This just displays a terrible inconsistency of character and makes the plot far less believable if things had been written to play out a bit differently.

Oh and Mace DOES try to arrest Palpatine after he corners him but then he rips into him with Force lightning....

I'm not certain how Dooku killing Jedi = Mace/Sidious confrontation. Perhaps I missed something? Palpatine is never unarmed. Anakin just watched him zap the hell out of Mace with lightning which Mace was barely able to withstand. Such an adversary is never unarmed (unless he has two cauterized stumps, heh heh).

Well I bought it and didnt really have a problem with, I do see your points. But to me it was believable.

We also have to add into the fact that he was trying to save Padme and that he believed only Sidious could help him. Even after Sidious announces that he doesn't know the power, but together they can learn it. Anakin at this point has gone to far.

It may have been more believable to me because of the backstory from the novel. In the novel during the infamous Nooo scene, Anakin actually wakes up to the fact that it has all been a lie from Sidious and that Anakin has been duped. However, he also realizes that the evil Sidious is all he has left. If somehow they could have played that emotion out in the movie, it would have been fantastic.

Yes, it is a terribly tragic irony that Anakin's primary m.o. to turn to the dark side is to save Padme and that what he ends up with is total isolation and a loss of his humanity. This is the truth of the Sith, basically you have only yourself and a partner that you cannot trust all that much (and in Anakin's case he is Sidious's complete bitch because he doesn't have the power to stop Sidious from killing him in an instant once he's in the suit)That whole feeling made me emotional as I watched this film...

Mentorship is definitely an issue here. Padme, althought playing the diplomat, is also offering Anakin sound advice. I don't think the scene is designed to show Anakin feeling disrespected by the Jedi at all, or that he is jealous of Obi-Wan. It's Padme diplomatically stating that Anakin has 'much to learn.'

I can't see the jealousy angle in this scene, although I understand your point about the power.

Just wanted to pipe in with my 2 cents after seeing it twice Monday.

It was everything I expected and more. Hyperbole aside, this is to me what the prequels are all about. Loose ends are tied up and the saga makes sense dramatically from Vader's point of view. The action, the acting, the pacing, all was more than I could have hoped to see in a prequel.

My only nitpicks would be the duels. The camera angles kind of sucked and left you confused a lot of the time, not being able to see full shots and discern who was doing what. Too many closeups and funny angles. And each one was too short. Lots of stuff on the cutting room floor, I bet. I don't see how anyone said that the anakin/Obi-Wan duel was 12 minutes. The one in the movie was like 2, maybe 3 tops.

Other than that, the movie was great. Loved it and damn near cried when Anakin got grilled on the lava BBQ.

I don't entirely blame Portman. A lot of the scenes and lines cut from AotC made her lines seem so banal.



He told him to kill Count Dooku - an act against the Jedi Code.

From memory, the duel was suppose to take place over three separate areas of the centre...and then across lava...and then the end. I think all the fight was covered?

It was. They covered the whole area, but there's gotta be some of the duel that wasn't put in, probably for editing/pacing issues.

I'm not complaining necessarily, just commenting that we all knew Hayden and Ewan practiced that duel for like two months, and tons of it was filmed (supposedly 10-12 minutes worth) but we ended up seeing only a tiny piece of it on film.

Again, don't get me wrong. I think 10-12 minutes of a single fight would have killed the momentum of the scene and would have been kind of pointless; but still, a little more would have been good. The fight was great, and that's why people wanted more. And that's a compliment, not a criticism.

Anakin turns to the dark side thinking he could cheat Sidious, so he lies to the Emperor only to take the advange of his blind help. He doesnt care about anything, because he's "so in love". Have you ever been "so in love"? It makes sense to me. He thought he could kill Palpatine after saving Padmé, so he acts being a "dark sider"; that's why his turn isn't fast; it's a fake turn. He believes he can go back after all. But then it's too late.
Sorry for weird english, i hope i could wrote my point of view.

Hey guys i notice something while watching ROTS. Remember a while back when we got those scans and it showed detail descriptions of Darth Vader? Remember it said that Palpatine isn't completly happy with the outcome of Vader because he can didn't turn out as powerfull as he hope since he part machine? I know it said Vader wasn't able to use force ligthing or withstand it because of his mechanical arms. However when he was confronted by Padme, he use his mechanical arm to force choke her. When fighting Obi Wan he use his left arm to block his force throw. Just felt that was kinda odd. It might be nitpicking but I did notice that.

Personally I feel vindicated by the film. All along I never bought the "mechanical Vader is a wuss/crippled old man in an iron lung" interpretation of the character. He was a badass in the OT, he was a badass in the PT. Finally ROTS spells it out for us: Darth Vader becomes more powerful than both Yoda and Sidious. Thank God Lucas came out and said it.

At my first viewing in Fox Studios, Sydney - the sound was fine. I went to a cinema closer to home and it sounded crap. I guess that is what you are talking about.


As for Vader's "Noooooooo!" I hated it because it gave Vader some humanity with I think he shouldn't have had. I would have liked to see the deep Vader breathing starting after Sidious tells him Padme is dead - almost a supression of emotion that Luke will need to unsupress in RotJ.

Yes, the sidescrolling part was cut, among other parts. I'd like to see it put back in on the dvd release, if it doesn't fuck the music up too bad.

I don't know how you watched the movie, becouse it's quite evident that Anakin is pissed off a lot at Palpatine upon learning that he is the Sith Lord. It's Palpatine that acts like nothing happened. But Palpatine has already been explaining Anakin his true way of thinking before that - everyone wants power, good and evil talk is hipocrysy, so it isn't like he was dishonest with him to such extent, that Anakin couldn't relate to the reasoning behind why he was hiding his Sith identity from him for so long or trying to get absolute power in the senate.

In the end everyone becomes moraly questionable for Anakin, that's one of the main reasons of his fall.

And would that drastic shift in personality come from the Super Terrific Mood Altering Suit?

Never thought "humanity" would be seen as an undesirable trait for the lead character in the film. Which he still is, at that point. It seems some people wanted the cool, calm, calculating Vader from the OT to emerge as soon as the mask was sealed in place, but the truth is that it's still just Anakin, still a young guy blinded by Sidious' lies, still an insecure kid willing to commit unspeakable acts in the name of saving the one he loves.

Look, I can clear up the whole Padme losing the will to live thing:

Anakin is pretty much dead laying on a lava beach somewhere. So she thinks to herself: "Does he think he is going to leave me to raise two children by myself?! Fuck that shit."

If all of a sudden your husband was dead and you were bringing two babies in the world, would you want to go on? Shit, taking care of one baby is hard enough, two at once is downright insane.

Oh, and I know it's wrong but I watched Team America: World Police Sunday night and then went to see ROTS Monday night. When Anakin turns to the darkside and kneels before the emperor, I kept expecting the Emperor to say: "You have to earn my trust (sound of zipper), and the best way is for you to perform oral sex on me"

"Damn, you are dedicated!"

Anyway, anyone who has seen TA:WP will understand. If not, please skip to the next message.

Mmmm, she doesn't know that. Besides, it's pretty hard just to will yourself dead you know.

Vader can choke people without using his arms though, as shown in TESB.

In Clone Wars, Anakin throws the Wat Tambors around with his stub.

Then there's the endearing moment where the natives rip off their arm guns and hail Anakin "Oog Jedi! Oog Jedi!"

Awww.

But I think the mechanical arm isn't a part of the process. It just comes out of his stub, and he raises his mechanical arm just because that's what's natural.

I think the whole point of the Noooooo! is to show that there is still humanity in Vader at that point, when we next see him some 20 years later the humanity appears to be gone. The story arc is as such:

TPM - Anakin is good
AOTC- Anakin is good with a dark side
ROTS - Arcs from good to evil - with still some good left in him
ANH - Evil
ESB - Evil with some good (couldn't kill Luke)
ROTJ Arcs from Evil with good to Good.

The circle is now complete. Amazingly done.

Yes, after the final duel i was like "it was supposed to be longer then long"...wtf happend?

But maybe longer is not what it needed. I think the climax shouldve been more dramatic in the way HOW anakin loses. The whole higher ground thing was laughable...And i wouldve liked more dialog inbetween the fight. Maybe Obiwan trying to bring him back...he didnt really try..

Bah couldve, shouldve....too bad.

Um, remember that movie, you know, "Star Wars"? Death Star - conference room - Motti - "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

i swear. you could shit gold nuggets and pass them out and people would still complain about the smell.



please continue.

The more I see it, the more I feel that if a few small kinks were fixed in it, mostly technical, it would be tied with Empire.