If anything, Lucas' weakness is as a writer. I think his directing and producing is top notch.

i think its the other way around. He can come up with good stories, plots, and idea but have a hard time making it look good on film sometimes.

i always thought lucas' editing was good, the way theres atleast 2 diffrent things happening at once going back and forth, atleast in the OT it worked well, i think TPM was kinda slow because it was mostly just following the pod race and that shit

That's what I'm saying. Coming up with an amazing idea is one thing, but making a coherent story out of that idea is another. Lucas has an eye for the visually amazing from idea to screen when he's directing, but the nitty gritty of the stories are usually lacking when he's writing.

If you guys can't understand the story in Star Wars, you need help.

I think Lucas spelled it out plain enough that I understood it when I was four years old.

He did the job. Give it up.

I wonder how many folks really know what they're talking about when critizising the "directing" of a movie.

Probably about as much as the people defending it.

Maybe the complainers would be happy if Lucas hadn´t made any SW movies at all and never thought of the concept..

but wait.. then these complainers wouldn´t be around.. damn..

We owe Lucas everything god dammit!

Nope. It was one of those scenes that moved the story along both plot and character wise. It was the same for the picnic scene.



Did I? Hmm...PPOR.



Hates everything else? No, it's just that I can discuss the bad and the good points of SW.

holy shit haven't seen one of these since I was prospecting on Subterrel.

Haven't heard one of these since..oh..before AOTC.

Sorry...I just refered to NEWBIE 101 Manual.

LOL...Do you have a fear of peer pressure? Feel the need to be one of the herd? Have to agree with everyone in order to feel loved?

I don't suffer from this. I create my OWN opinions, mate.

And...

I was disappointed with RotS. The story of TPM was better constructed than this one. I do think the plot of the PT is a mess....but none of that equates that I hate it. See, you failed to mentioned that parts I did like...ho hum.

On a lighter note, what's the official story on shields in the Star Wars movies? I know Han was always talking about the "aft shield" on the Falcon was down, etc., and there were those big shield generating towers on the Imperial class Star Destroyers.

But it seems that in all the visual effects (in both the prequels and OT) stuff just goes right through the "shields" and takes a chunk out of the ships. Even the X-Wings from the OT and the Republic fighters (from prequels) blow up after a couple of shots. In the video games and books the fighters seem to take more of a beating because of the shields.

I always thought that it worked like this...

Republic vs. Separtists = strong Republic fighters (astromech, shield, and everything) vs. lots and lots and lots of weak Confederate droid fighters

Rebels vs. Empire = (same as above)

But in the movies, those poor pilots go down after 1 shot! And in EP3, those capital ships were taking chunks out of each other with every shot.

Well I had never seen laser cannons that used WWII style artillery guns and shells.

Maybe those can penetrate shields. Or maybe shields don't do anything except heighten the danger of the movie. Things seem a lot more tense when the pilot, with big eyes, yells "Our shields are down!/One more hit and we'll lose the shields!"

Well, I just posted what I thought of it after I saw it; and I was disappointed in it for reasons I have stated. I didn't force you to agree with me.



Well for me, this particular movie just wasn't all that great. I like a story to make sense and this one didn't.



Well, I am glad you like to word your opinions so that people don't feel offended by your thoughts. I prefer to just tell it as I see it. I don't, and won't, change my opinion because you feel confronted by what I say.



I didn't mention anything about the structure of RotS...I said it about the PT.



No one said you had to...

I'm actually glad Dagobah wasn't in the movie. If people are going to watch these in the order 1-6 there should be a few surprises in the OT. Yoda is such a big character of the prequels, then there's no word of him in Episode 4. I like that in the future if people are watching them in order people can wonder what happened to him and can be surprised at finding Yoda in a swamp. Plus, we know where he ends up. There is no need to show it in Episode 3.

I agree. The last 20 minutes of the film doesn't have to be "what ever happened to him?" I think the Dagobah scene would have been one-too-many. But the Qui-Gon scene didn't work well in the theatrical cut. Yoda mentions it to ObiWan like he just pulled it out of his ass. Having Qui-Gon return as a ghost would have been great...it would have added 5 minutes max; I don't see how that would have been a huge problem keeping it.

There's one thing I would love to ask:

What happened to Sidious' lightsaber - Mace hits Sidious and the saber falls through the window. Later on, he has to fight Yoda with his saber.
Anybody any info?

I concur. The story of the PT wasn't put together very well, in the movies. If your read the comics (most specifically the Republic series), novels, and watch the Clone Wars shorts the PT seems way more cohesive than just the movies by themselves.

Which is also frustrating because 1) I have people asking me questions like "How did Anakin get that scar on his face?" and 2) there were a lot of ideas in the comics\novels that were written so beautifully that could've played out well onscreen, i.e. Dooku's fear of his master, Skywalker, and his wanting to go back to the light.

There are also instances in other outlets that make Anakin's turn to the darkside in RotS much more justified than, "Whoops, I killed Mace, oh well, I'll just be Palpatine's bitch now."

You have no grasp of this series if those comments are representative of your understanding of the films.

How did Leia steal the DS plans? Why is Luke's lightsaber in ROTJ green? (yeah I know about blue saber on blue sky, but I mean in story?) And how did he learn the force choke? Wait a second... isn't it the dark side ability?

I mean, who cares? They've been fighting in a war for three years... time enough to acquire a few battle scars, and modify your artificial hand, and add some cool gadgets to your astromech droid. Things like that belong to the EU for a reason: because they're NOT IMPORTANT to the story.



Then I'm glad they don't write the story for the movies because it sounds really dumb.



For someone who talks about "nuances" you seem to have missed all of them in ROTS and the prequels.

LOL notice how Lucas is bashed the most by those who have no clue about storytelling and filmmaking.

Lol, yes I did. And I agree, most of the EU is shit, but there are some good titles that are worth a read if you like Star Wars. And some stuff that was done better than the movies (prequel trilogy mind you).

And CoGro what does reading some extra material have to do with my grasp of the series? If that statement is in regard to my OPINION that I FELT that the Anakin's turn in the movie was rushed and underdeveloped then that's fine but that still has no bearing on my understanding of the series when I in fact do understand.

I was merely stating that if Tern felt that the PT wasn't very well constrcuted there were other material out there, that if he didn't know about (which I'm sure he did), that shows that the PT was very well constructed, it just didn't seem like it in the movies. I'm defending the PT and RotS for christ's sake.

I'm pretty sure I picked up on most of the nuances on Anakin's turn to the dark side, if you would call them "nuances" since they pertain to the central plot element of the movies. And cantina_patron a lot of people care about the little shit in the Star Wars universe, which is why they make Visual Dictionaries and the like. And obviously George does too since he put Anakin's scar and Grevious' cough in the movie which come from EU material.

And while I love the EU and I admit it's certianly not the greatest at times, I still don't think it is burial grounds for stuff not important to the story in the Star Wars movies. If that's the case I can point out A LOT of stuff in the prequel trilogy that wasn't important to the movies.

Again, this is only my opinion...

The EU has no bearing on the movies AT ALL. All these little things that 'could' have played out better based on the EU are irrelevant. They mean NOTHING to the movies. It doesn't fucking matter how Anakin got his scar, or what Dooku's true intentions were. It's not the story. The scar and the cough don't COME from EU material, the EU takes what's been done in the movie and gives it a backstory. The chicken came before the egg. Again, you're ass backwards if you think it's the other way around.

im not one of the minority group to not like star wars. I love star wars. I love the PT as well. But i can honestly say..reading the book and screenplay seem much more exciting and played better then how we put it on film ALot of things he cut out of the film i read in the screenplay that I think should have been there. I liked the movie but he could have done it a little better in some ways or had more help in making iit look good on film thats all.

Well, I enjoy Clone Wars cartoon but more as a filler between the episodes. Interesting, but not very important.

First off, I want to apologize for not bashing anybody or insulting anyone based on their opinions. I know I probably should just jump out and attack everyone, but I'm just too tired to be insulting and bitter.

Having said that, I'll come to my point:

I loved this movie. Absolutely loved it. I could spend a few months nitpicking itty bitty details (Vader going Nooooooooo!!! chaps my ass) ~ but I really just want to say: "I loved this movie." More importantly, I felt like this movie LOVED ME. I really felt like George & Co. was trying to deliver on this one. To hit a homerun. And for me, they knocked it out of the park. I'm a very, very, very happy and content little SW pinhead right now.

~ bacchus.

p.s. - if you disagree with my opinion I do want you to know that you are, in fact, wrong. My opinion is the Truth and Nothing But The Truth. I hope you come to understand the error of your ways and accept The Truth. My Truth. 'Cause I'm right. Only me.

(yeah, just kidding ~ flame away, bitter monkeys!) . . .

Good point. I thought it wouldve been cool if Obi-wan would at least try to get him back. I mean he did say "Anakin, the emperor is evil" but really try to save his friend he did not.

Never said the EU did have any bearing on the movies. Things that I FELT could've played out better was only my opinion nothing more.

I only brought up the scar because a couple of friends asked about it and it served to elaborate my point, as well as Grevious' cough which made no sense in the movie if you didn't see it on the Clone Wars shorts, which was from EU material (sorry for the mistake in the earlier post). Just forget I said anything about the EU (which you probably already have).

I'm tired of arguing, so I'll just bandwagon. The whole story of the RotS and the PT is the best ever written. Dammit it would be blasphemy if Mr. Lucas doesn't win an Oscar for best story\screenplay this year.

It's not spelled out directly, but Obi-wan genuinely was on Anakin's side the entire movie until the very last moment. He always saw the good in him and the potential he had as the chosen one. The 'You were the chosen one' speech is what Vader refers to when he says that to Luke in Jedi. Obi-wan always believed in Anakin, just as Luke did.

Not only that but Obi Wan was obviously trying to talk sense into him at the beginning of the duel. Why is it that Star Wars fans think every stupid detail needs to be said out loud. Are people only going to be happy if Obi Wan says something like "Stop Anakin. Come back with me!" Details like the scar just show he has been fighting quite a bit between the time of aotc and rots. So does his more muscular physique in the dream sequence.

For once Lucas does more showing than telling in ep 3 and people bitch and moan about how Lucas doesn't do enough telling, which was one of the problems in the last two movies. Too much exposition. Film is a visual medium, you shouldn't have to have conversations like "I've disappointed you, I've been arrogant" to which the response is "I've trained you since you were a boy and you are far more powerful than me." That type of stuff has been shown, it doesn't need to be recapped for the audience unless they're taken for idiots. There are a few moments like this in ep 3 but it's not as bad as the first two, maybe because there is less talking overall it seems. I just don't get some Star Wars fans...especially when they try to compare the films negatively to the EU.

Awesome flick, better than I expected in several ways.

I can appreciate Ternian's perspective. I actually enjoy the PT's political subplots and how they reflect on various characters' internal conversations - or vice-versa, as Lucas seems to have approached the story. At the same time I recognize how they can bog down the pacing. For that reason I regard as a strength ROTS's lack of same, edited out in favor of a simple (if perhaps simplistic) character-driven story.

In fact a prime weakness of the PT is exactly that Lucas flipped the OT's thematic structure upside down. In the OT we had character arcs that thematically drove galactic events. In the PT we have galactic events thematically driving character arcs. The latter has resulted in problems with pacing and motivation that the former did not. In ROTS Lucas correctly edited to favor character arcs over setting arcs. Anakin's arc is simple and accessible (though admittedly rushed). So are Obi-Wan's, Yoda's and Palpatine's. We can easily apply them to the larger setting. Details about the setting are nice, but much more easily inferred than character details.

All of which is half-baked intellectual analysis. The more compelling strength of ROTS is that, at almost every point in the film, a major character is thoroughly enjoying himself. Anakin and Obi-Wan have a ball during their Jedi adventures (tell me Ewan McGregor's smile doesn't forgive many evils). Palp's serpentine guile is delicious before Anakin's fall - the kind of Dangerous Liaisons-style "manipulate-the-chump" game that's too fun to watch - and of course he gets no end of wicked glee out of finally cutting loose on Yoda. That shit is seriously contagious. And of course Yoda gets his catharsis by finally popping open some little-green-whupass on the Sith Lord. Heck, even Anakin and Padme seem relaxed together for a change. In fact for the most part, the only moments where a character isn't enjoying himself are pivotal points in the entire saga, the iconic moments we've been waiting to see all along.

If I had a magic wand, I'd clean up some of Lucas's famously abysmal dialogue, lose the Romper Room Roundup and most of Crispy Anakin, make Anakin's internal thoughts more explicit when/after he handles Mace, and leave the rest just as it is - classic Star Wars cheese.

Sweet film.

Wouldn't necessarily call it caving in, just don't like arguing, and I'm pretty sure CoGro and myself can go on forever about the EU vs Star Wars, but it's irrelevant to this post and detracts from others that want to actually talk about the movie. There's already enough bebates on the EU vs the movies elsewhere, don't need one in here as well.

The depth you mentioned was what I was trying to get at, the Anakin-scar and Grevious-cough were just two examples I was trying to use to elaborate, poor ones I admit. The Qui-Gon thing will probably be elaborated on by some other author in EU material which sucks cuz it should've been in the movie, and since George didn't do it no one is gonna care cuz it's not in the movie. The scar thing was not meant to show that the EU overrides the movies but that George acknowledges its prescence and its fans, such as mention Quilan-Vos and Aayla Secura.

There's a lot of stuff that served better (I THOUGHT) in the EU that would've quieted the naysayers (myself included) in regards to the shallowness of the prequel trilogy. The Clone Wars was one of the most integral periods of the Star Wars universe, and led the whole weakening of the Force, Sidious' uprising, and part of Anakin's downfall and it was left to comics and novels.

While I felt that the movies were great, there were points in the movies that I felt could've been in the movies, and you can't say they're not important because they are.

And I also understand what everyone is saying about filling in the details but if George has given someone the green light to describe something in more depth then as a SW fan I'd like to know about it. And I think all of us as fans should know about it to (if it's there) and not just leave it to the imagination.

Of course I ran home immediately afterward to watch ANH. It is now SO F****D UP watching Anakin in that suit. Completely changes the OT for me as WELL as the PT (though I still dislike I and II immensely).

For me, Empire and Sith are tied for number one, although different.
Then ANH, Jedi, II, I

I DID notice that the OT is now SLOW AS F**K. After watching Sith its like snale paced. I was watching R2 get sucked into the Sandcrawler by that giant tube the jawa lowers and IT WAS TAKING FOREVER!! Nothing would move that slow in Sith.

My one nitpick. Mace fights like he has a dookie in his depends. Not nimble. Not quick. And he does this thing where he looks over his shoulder while running back and he blows wind while his cheeks puff out like he just slipped a disk or popped a hernia. Am I alone on this?

I hadn't seen the last 5 Clone Wars episodes and I didn't once wonder why Grievous had a cough. Why should I? That was part of who he was the first time I met him.

Anakin's scar, however, is a little different in that he is the main character of the trilogy and there is a feeling that a part of the story has been missed. Like there's an adventure we weren't told about. The scar, for whatever reason, creates more intrigue than say Obi-Wan's allusions to a Cato Nemoidia adventure or Han's encounter with a bounty hunter before ESB. Not sure why - maybe it's because it has constant visual presence. It's like a puzzle waiting to be solved.

Unlike many fans, I didn't need an explanation on the disappearing Jedi, or the nature of the Force or any of that though so maybe I'm in the minority...

Oh and this -


I would have a hard time thinking that the increased pace is always a good thing bearing in mind that one of the most frequent comments I'm hearing is that RotS was a little rushed. There are almost too many moments in the PT to mention that I felt didn't get the attention they deserved. I would argue that faster does not equal better.

Although I have to admit that it's not what people usualy expect from a love story, I think those scenes in AOTC showed preety well that Padme didn't really have any expectations, what kind of a person should someone be to be worthy of her love. She didn't care about such stuff, she didn't want any relationships, she was very independent and to busy with senatorial tasks for the moment, even if becouse of that very lonely. So I think that in that scene on Geonosis, waiting to be executed, facing very real possibility of death, she suddenly was taken over by fear, that she would die having such an empty life. Now she wanted to feel love for Anakin, to have a close connection with a person that had known her for a long time (sort of), that loved her, even if he wasn't so great, attractive overall. Maybe not something you would expect from Padme, but people tend to think her tougher then she really was. I guess initialy it was a different kind of relationship to what's traditionaly called "love", but it certainly matured nicely into a classical, romantic love in ROTS.

Helluva good movie. Wrapped the PT up in style. GL's dialoge is still rough, but it is a marked improvement. I went with my wife and her brother and his wife all of whom are not big SW fans. They enjoyed it. The girls dug the love story part and my brother in law liked the action scenes. The actor's looked like they were actually enjoying this one! Some inspiring performances. Some good banter despite the dark tone. Obi's hello there! to GG was priceless. Palpatine was chewing up the scenery like a madman. I got chills when Vader first dons the mask, Hayden's look was killer! Anakin's turn was rushed but this movie felt more like the OT with the characters driving the events and not vice-versa. Sure the Vader Noooo! squence was classic cheese but it fit the story. My wife who has watched all the SW movies with me over the past couple of weeks to prepare for RoTS was able to keep up with the story and pick up on the ties to ANH and it was not spelled out for her nor did I have to explain everything afterward. Is it oscar caliber? no but worthy of the mantle of SW.

Dogg Thang


I didn't say I thought faster was better. I just said it was fast compared to the old ones and a shock to go from Sith to ANH.

By the way, is it possible that white people who dislike Jacksons performance may just be racist and not realize it? I just got to thinking that I also seemed to not like Lando so much when I was a kid. I'm seriously trying to check myself on that, but dang-it if I'm just not feeling Mace in the PT.

Any black opinions on Mace in the PT?

Coruscant first appeared in the Expanded Universe in Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire. Coruscant wasn't originally seen on screen until The Phantom Menace. It was seen on screen in the 1997 Special Edition release of Return of the Jedi.

One of my fav. planets!! Urban sprawl Rules!

Coruscant was called the Imperial City before Zahn stuck a name on it. Look at all the old McQuarrie drawings. Timothy Zahn did not come up with the planet or the city. He just came up with a name and Lucas decided to use it.

The concept "entire planet=one big city" was present already in earlier drafts of Return of the Jedi screenplay and Luke/Vader/Emperor duel was supposed to happen there. Zahn just gave it a name. As for the looks, I don't know if he inspired anything.

The concept of a city covering an entire planet is not entirely new. The planet Trantor in Isaac Asimov's Foundation novels is probably the first fictional planet to be totally urbanized, but it was not the last. I think, one of the draft names of Coruscant was "Jhantor", in homage to Asimov's work. Trantor was entirely covered in city except for 100 square kilometers devoted to the gardens of the Imperial Palace; the same is stated to be true of Coruscant in Shadows of the Empire.

The way I see Padme's character is a metaphor for freedom. When freedom died, so did she. When the medical droid said that she has just apparently lost the will to live and that there's nothing wrong with her medically explains it.

In TPM and AOTC, she advocates strength through freedom, especially when she goes back to Naboo in TPM during the droid occupation. She and Mon Mothma were the main voices of liberty in the Senate during the Clone Wars when the Chancellor wanted to have more executive powers. Perhaps that may be one of the reasons why Mon Mothma and the Petition of the 2000 scenes were cut from the movie? To strengthen Padme's character?

I don't think it has to do with the identity of Anakin being gone, because she still has two babies that she just gave birth to. However, this is more logical and makes sense too.

To me, Padme resembles freedom, democracy, and liberty throughout the entire trilogy, or saga for that matter.

As for the reasons I was disappointed with RotS, I thought I made it clear but anyhoo...

The reason I was disappointed in RotS was because there was a gaping plot hole surrounding Anakin's turn to the Dark Side , and as I mentioned, I like my stories to be consistent more than anything else.

Up until Anakin's turn, his one motivation for saving Darth Sidious was to save Padme - nothing more, nothing less; it is the one thing that stops him from killing him when Palpatine reveals who he really is. Then, after Anakin kills Mace, Sidious tells him that he doesn't know the secret that will save Padme.

Keeping with character, Anakin really should have gone apeshit on Sidious and slaughtered him. But, for some unexplainable reason, never known to audience, Anakin joins him and turns him into Darth Vader. It is really inconsistent with Anakin's character up until that point.

When the entire Saga is based on this moment, I found it weak, which in turn disappointed me.






EDIT: "...Tern, who's in 95 TFN mode ..." - just call it Retro JC Mode.

probably asked/answered.

1138? i haven't seen it.






that's all i got.

I think the plot around Padme and the Rebellion in RotS would have been a meatier story for GL to explore. In the novel, Palpatine plays Padme off Mon Mothma, and Anakin's insecurities against Padme. With Palpatine knowing about the Rebellion, everything becomes more dangerous for all our main characters. It would also make a lot of RotS more plausible - ie. Anakin's ramblings about evil Jedi(RotS) vs. Obi's evil politicians (AotC).

Most of the cut scenes from AotC's Naboo dealt with Padme's desire to have a family and her self revelation that she is personally unfulfilled with life. It was a real shame they were cut.

Tern I can relate with you there.

Sids tells Anakin that he really doesn't know the secret to life. Anakin should've been like "What?! I just betrayed what I've given my entire life to for this and it wasn't really true? Fuck you!" [cue ruthless slaughter]

That was my only question with the turn. Why did Anakin stay with Sids even after he found out that Sids didn't know shit? It could've at least had a debate in his head, saying that the Jedi wouldn't forgive him for what he had done if he went back to them, or maybe they would, and Anakin makes his decision based on that.

Ternian, when did Sidious tell Anakin he knew this power? He didn't
When did Sidious tell Anakin he was the apprentice that killed Plagueis? He didn't.

There was no plothole. He told Anakin that only threw him could he achieve that power. Anakin believed that he must learn to know the darkside of the force to acheive this power. Sidious told Anakin that the power was possible threw the darkside, which he could teach him(leading him down the path to Plag's discovery). Damn it.

Yeah. But I do think that Lucas did cut a lot of unnecessary dialogue in the beginning half. If the opening space battle would've been extended, it would've started dragging. It was perfect the way it was.

I even said to my buddy before that the Petition of the 2000 scenes would've been cool to have because we would've seen the roots of the Rebel Alliance. But it also makes sense for it to be cut because it does strengthen Padme's character to a certain degree. But hey, we're die-hard fans, so anything extra is definitely good for us.

We can only hope Lucas restores some scenes in the future... *crosses fingers* I have a feeling he will since he's not going to be making anymore Star Wars movies. That's where most of his money comes from. Not those little projects that he's talking about doing. That won't make him squat compared to Star Wars.

What a quick and easy way to make more money again. To only restore cut scenes.

To further expand on what I felt Anakin believed here's how I imagine his thoughts (extremely simplified)

"Boy, if one Sith using the dark side could save the ones he loved I could too! I'm the freakin' chosen one! I need this Palps guy to teach me the secrets of the Dark Side the Jedi won't tell me about. Then I'll surely figure it out, I'm the most powerful Jedi ever!"

I know it corney but you get the point