Whoah, lot to think about here. Qui-Gon had a hand in the twins' conception? That'd be a mind trip.

Definitely going to change opinions of TPM and AOTC.

Sounds great. I love hearing new details like this.

Showing a newbie the series in this order would be a disaster. After Empire, you're abandoning Luke, Leia, and Han for seven hours, and then suddenly expecting your audience to love them again come ROTJ. If you're going to break it up, go 1-4-2-5-3-6.

And thanks for the report, Ternian! Impressive. Most impressive.

"If you wanna touch the sky, better learn how to kneel."

While it´s incredibly cheesy, it would explain alot. Neither the Sith nor the old Jedi Order had any true knowledge of love, after all those centuries of devoting themselves to their respective calls.

One thing I´m puzzled with, and I´m not sure if it´s been answered elsewhere, is, did Palpatine kill Darth Plagueis and how long ago was this? A thousand years?

Neither the Sith nor the old Jedi Order had any true knowledge of love,

Not even one Jedi in all that time?

"What's it like, Ron?"
"The intimate times? Out of sight, my man!"
"No, the other thing. Love."
"Yeah, what is that?"

I think Padme knew about each child as they were born. She likely never realized she was having twins until the moment she was told there was one of each. As for not knowing she was having twins, it's possible. Many pregnancies with twins have happened where the one child is behind the other, and the hidden baby you can't see with the monitors because the first one is in the way. So you think you're only having one, even though it's actually twins. And Padme didn't spend that much time with Anakin before her death, so that could explain why no one sensed there was "two babies".



I felt the death scene was beautiful. It was a nice touch Padme giving Obi-Wan the snippet. It tied her first knowing Anakin as a child, and gets you thinking of that nice little boy that gave her the snippet in TPM, and with her death, you see what that boy has become. Her death I think would make Obi-Wan truly believe that Anakin wasn't saveable. He loved her so greatly, but he could do this...Powerful stuff!

My guess is only the Jedi that know love can retain their identity at the end of their lives. Anakin loves Padme and Luke, Yoda and Obi-Wan spend their time "learning to love". This explains why Anakin "knows" the secret of the force without Yoda or Obi-Wan telling him. He "learns" it when he sacrifices himself out of love.

Wow. This scene is just so sad. And the dialogue is better than what most of us had come up with. It's not confusing at all. (unless English is not your first language.)

Also, I am a twin. Born in 1975. My mom had no idea she was having twins and neither did the doctors. My brother came out and I was still in there and the nurse found another heart beat. Seven minutes later I was born. Sometimes twins are a surprise. My parents had to come up with another name, people had to knit another blanket, etc. No one knew. (Except my grandma, somehow. She told my mom she was having twins.)

If they stood by their beliefs and rules, then, no. Even if there were some, they would most likely leave the order. Leave those stories to the EU.

Love can't be the key - it's not like Qui-Gon went home to a wife and kids, and Obi-Wan and Yoda certainly don't spend the next two decades steeped in romance. They spend the years as hermits, which is apparently a crucial factor in their mystical deaths.

No, it's got to be about Letting Go, about humility and a lack of illusions. My best guess is that in order to become one with the Force, you have to surrender yourself entirely to the Force, including your identity. And your identity is who you are at this very moment, not who you used to be, who you're going to be or who you want to be; and especially not what you possess or control. You exist entirely in the here and now - "where you are & what you are doing." Kind of a Zen thing. When you remove yourself from space & time, you become unbound by either.

That's why the Sith will never learn it. They can't let go of anything. In the case of Darths Plagueis, Sidious and Vader, they refuse to surrender even physical life. And they're so steeped in deceit that they can never know themselves. "The Sith gain understanding through power" - as if the pursuit of power leads to understanding.

That's the polar opposite of the Jedi - "The Jedi gain power through understanding." It almost implies that the pursuit of power alone is antithetical to understanding. That there is no power without first knowing yourself and the Force. All else is distraction. "There is no 'why.'" "There is no 'try.'" "Only what you take with you."

What was Luke's moment of ultimate triumph? "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." He is who he is, no illusions, no distractions. And it's that statement, and Luke's demonstration of its truth, that finally clears everything up for Vader: "A Jedi, like my father." In that instant Vader remembers who he is - Anakin Skywalker, Jedi Knight. Everything else is illusion. Ever since Padme's death he had denied who he was. When he accepts it, he's redeemed.

How Qui-Gon will sum that up in a sentence or two, I haven't worked out yet.

"See, you're joking, but 10 bucks says that's just about it.."

Who says I'm joking, Robert?

p.s.

Rambo Rick says "hi".

"haha the series goes from 1 to 6, swollow it down with pride and stfu... just live with the fact that people who are going to be introduced to Star Wars in the future are going to get a different experience than you... "

Ha, ha, I'm going to show the series to my children and nephew and niece in the order in which I think they'll get the most enjoyment out of the films. So you and your George lucas avatar stfu and mind your own damn business.

The fact remains...The Phantom Menace is a poor way to introduce someone to the SW universe. They don't even explain the Force, or what the Force is. A New Hope is the perfect way to introduce someone to Star Wars, as we learn about this world and the Force through Luke's eyes. Hell, Lucas didn't even arrive at the notion that Vader was Luke's father until the writing process of Empire Strikes Back. Once you start at Episode IV, the only logical narrative pathway to maintain the maximum enjoyment out of the saga is 4.5.1.2.3.6

Why is it bad exactly, to not find out everything about the Force right at the start? Most series with a continous storyline don´t reveal the big secrets right at the beginning, but that´s how sw has been up til now.

I´d like to see you try and convince entire generations to see them in the old order. "Yeah, man, you need to see Ep. IV before Ep. I because even if Ep. I introduces the larger universe, it doesn´t explain the Force right away, and since my ADD-infested mind can´t handle that, it´s out of the question!!!!!!"

"Why is it bad exactly, to not find out everything about the Force right at the start? Most series with a continous storyline don´t reveal the big secrets right at the beginning, but that´s how sw has been up til now."

The Force is not a "Big Secret". It is "modus operandi" for the major characters. Should people watch 7 hours of the series - includung the fall of Anakin Skywalker - before someone even sits down and explains what the force is? Or is it better for newbies to learn along the way, just as Luke does, in the midst of thirilling adventures until he learns a terrible secret, which takes us all the way back to the past, to learn how that all came about?

"I´d like to see you try and convince entire generations to see them in the old order."

I'd like to see you try and stop me from showing the films to my children and my niece and nephew in the order I so choose.

The secret of the force - is love and sacrifice. Something along those lines will be it, I guess.

It is when you're taking up an entirely new set of protagonists for those seven hours. If you show me The Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers, then suddenly decide to throw the Matrix trilogy at me, and then show me Return of the King, I'm probably not going to care nearly as much for Frodo and Sam as I would have.

I'd bet all my beans that the secret to the force is "Love."

Then we fade out to Brian Ferry's "Is Your Love Strong Enough."

Fuck it, why not.

Long live Star Wars. Great fucking stuff happening here.

I dunno, that's the big question. Lucas changed that specifically informed by the ROTS storyline. Of course his Joseph Campbell-ish motivation is clear - since TPM's "divine birth" Anakin has explicitly become the messianic character, the hero who defeats the underworld, the Resurrected God archetype signifying the ascent from darkness (the inward reflection of the rebirth of Spring). Within that theme Anakin is the young hero and Vader/the Dark Side represent the underworld he defeats. It makes sense that he would be "reborn" as he was when he "died" and that his "resurrection" is also a return to youth.

However, it doesn't entirely mesh with the pseudo-Buddhist themes of the Force. Some piece of the puzzle is still missing.

My money is on love also. Or some sort of compassion. But I like Zinger's explanation, too. I really am glad that the japoor snippet came back.

Fatboy - your explanation of the birth sounds about right.

"It is when you're taking up an entirely new set of protagonists for those seven hours. If you show me The Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers, then suddenly decide to throw the Matrix trilogy at me, and then show me Return of the King, I'm probably not going to care nearly as much for Frodo and Sam as I would have."

What utter nonsense. As if The Matrix inhabits the same realm as the SW universe. I saw plenty of films in the 16 years between Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace, but the giant questions of the OT sustained the distance of years.

"Ben...why didnt't you tell me?"

Flashback to Obi Wan Kenobi in his youth and the adventures leading to the discovery and training and downfall of Anakin Skywalker...then we return to Luke as Yoda dies and Luke Skywalker sets out to confront and save his father, and hopefully does not sucumb to the same fate.

Kudos to you guys for exploring the mythological and philosophical subtexts of the saga. I am enjoying reading your stuff, but all I can contribute at this point is the excitement of a 10 year old.

Analytical mind shut down. Gonna have so much fucking fun with this Summer.

It has to be love. I've been thinking about this a bit (slow day), and it's the only explanation I can come up with for various things. Qui-Gon, in his own fatherly way, loved Anakin, and was allowed to retain his identity. Obi-Wan loved Luke, and Yoda loved just about everybody. And when Anakin died, he retained his love for Luke, and that's how he was able to return in Return of the Jedi, even though he'd never been tought the 'trick.'

What if Qui-Gon is actually reborn as Luke Skywalker? That would create a totally new look for the old trilogy, explain the whole "another level" thing. Would also explain, why there's no fading away of Qui-Gon at his death.

That would even explain the younger Force Ghost of Anakin Skywalker at the end of ROTJ.

It would make sense, Qui-Gon comes back to rescue Anakin.

Well, if Qui-Gon does somehow have a hand in the birth of Luke and Leia... and no one was aware of Luke....

... it's possible. We'll find out.

That's because it is wrong, it should be PADME SKYWALKER!

Obi-Wan: "Look, master, a baby boy. By the way, who were you talking to?"
Yoda: "Qui-Gon Jinn."
Obi-Wan: "Can I talk to him?"
Yoda: "Um, he had to run. Let me see the boy. Kitchy-kitchy-koo! Always wanted to do that to him, I have!"

Something to remember about Qui-Gon Jinn is his ghostly cameo in AOTC. He didn't want Anakin to turn evil and seemed distressed by it. Seems reasonable to deduce that his role in ROTS will largely be a reaction to Anakin's turn, as opposed to foresight.

I'm not sure if George Lucas is doing these movies to please mega fans, average moviegoers, or your girlfriend.

Maybe I'm wrong though.

I think the "secret" of The Force is Love. As I've said in great detail elsewhere http://www.millenniumfalcon.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2690 (23rd. and 29th. posts down from top) I think that Lucas is trying to make a grand statement on the true nature of material power and of love, and how they're polar opposites of one another.

While the "elite" and powerful are fully capable of loving those that are close to them, it is extremely difficult for them to express any love towards those that are outside their own realm of "reality." To do so would mean that they would have to give up their power over things physical, for they wouldn't be able to exercise the means by which they acquire said power; it is just too abusive to the masses.

Here's a concrete example of what I'm getting at: could you imagine what Phil Knight, the former CEO of Nike would have to have given up in order to treat his workers more humanely? Nike is still one of the worst corporations in the world in regards to how it treats its "employees" (slaves would be a better word), forcing them to work in environments where toxic resins are brushed on shoe parts in unventilated factories, with shoe scraps being destroyed in OPEN burn barrels located inside the factory, having employees run barefoot around the plant for asking to go to the bathroom (photos of these cruel working conditions are available online)? Hell, these impoverished people can't even afford to buy their own pair of Nike shoes, they're paid so poorly. He even erected factories in Indonesia, a world capital in human rights abuses but rich on super cheap labor and the blatant repression of the majority of its people. Now, using my analogy, did Phil Knight feel tremendous grief when his son recently drowned? Of course he did. But in light of how he's treated his employees, reaping enormous profits from their misery, I think it's fair for one to say that in the grand scheme of what this man has achieved that he is a money hungry rapacious monster. He's utterly incapable of feeling any empathy for anyone outside of his world of immediate experience. A lot of people idolize the man because he's "the ultimate," and the question has to be asked, "the ultimate of what precisely?" Those who still revere this man in spite of his horrendous treatment of thousands of people are saying an awful lot about themselves. Perhaps they'd learn some real compassion only after they've worked in one of these "dungeon factories," and lived in the shoes of one of its victims.

The only true power that's worth having (not to sound too sickly sweet about it, but I'll call it The Power of Love) is only gained by GIVING and SACRIFICE, not by TAKING and HOARDING, which is what greed is. Power in the material world is acquired by taking/stealing it from others. Most of the time this power exchange is covert, meaning the masses aren't fully aware that they're being exploited by the very people they've been tricked to "worship" and idolize. It's a sick system, no doubt about it, but that's what makes it so evily effective.

Whether one sees the secret of The Force as "letting go" or as "Love" is irrelevant, as in the big picture they're one and the same.

Yoda states in AotC that the Jedi have become "arrogant." They also seem incapable of acting out of true compassion to create justice where justice is certainly needed. The Jedi Council denied Anakin's training, while Qui-Gon was adamant that he receive it. The Jedi did nothing to release Anakin's mom from slavery, a reward he was most certainly due, especially after the space battle at Naboo. They operate OFFICIALLY as "Keepers of the Peace," but that begs the question "Of who's 'peace,' and of what kind?" The "peace" of a beauracracy that's willing to gradually decay the rights of its people, who it supposedly represents? Instead of addressing matters that need correcting directly, the Jedi now behave within a sphere that keeps them from reaching out fully with their hearts towards matters that are clearly unjust. It is clear that right from Episode I, which some people have claimed to be the "height" of the Jedi, that there was no true peace in existence at that time, only the illusion of it.

By the time the Jedi try to respond to the crippling nature of the beauracracy that they're serving in Episode III, it is already too late for them to do anything about it. It's no mere accident that Lucas has placed the Jedi at the HEAD of the clone armies, unwittingly assisting the Sith Lord in spreading imperialism throughout the Republic (without question, the "swords" of imperialism almost always think that they are fighting for a just cause, spreading "peace, love" and "harmony" wherever their governments send them). Lucas goes so far as to illustrate that their own Jedi starfighter is the precursor in shape and design to both the Imperial Star Destroyer and the TIE Fighter, the primary tools of future imperialsim. How much more obvious does he need to get in explaining why the Jedi fall?

They forgot how to love, and even more importantly they forgot their Grand Mission, to actually PRACTICE said love. In my opinion, their fall, and the "secret" of The Force lies in this.

I'm going to go out on a limb here... but there is one thing that was really belaboured about Qui-Gonn Jinn's character.. and that was his relationship with the midichlorians..

So I believe the secret isn't love... it's midichlorians.

According to QGJ's definition, midichlorians have a symbiotic relationship with ALL living things, they reside in everything... Yoda reiterates this in ESB when he tells Luke that the Force exists in rocks, trees, etc. He also tells Luke that we are "luminous beings' not just flesh... because of our symbiotic relationship with midichlorians... ALL living things have midichlorians... this means that even if you aren't a Jedi.. you have midichlorians... the Jedi have the ability to sense and manipulate the Force... and the force may be "life-force" or "mana" or "gaea" or "living energy" that is encompassed through the entire symbiotic relationship of the midichlorians and each living thing.

Put simply, if all living things and all midichlorians are symbiotic.. then I am a human being, but I am also a tree, and vice versa.

The reason the Sith cannot figure out a way to cheat death is... nobody ever really dies.

In "quieting his mind" Qui Gonn is able to hear the will of the force, and is able to let go of his concious self (his ego) and become an instrument of the Force.

The Sith try and gain mastery of the Force through power over it... but you can't really control something that you are in complete control of already... it's submission...

The Jedi almost get it but the Jedi are also too busy trying to protect the "Chosen One" who is going to balance out the Force... ... and are too busy trying to be a counterpoint to the Sith.. to stay away from the Dark Side of the Force... to really understand the true nature of the midichlorians. The Jedi are too intellectual to figure it out... it's kind of like the Zen idea of learning enlightenment by laying in the mud.


Maybe the Force is never really out of balance... maybe it just is. What is out of balance is the Jedi's perception of the Force.

This might also explain why in ESB Yoda is continually trying to get Luke to not think about the future... to focus on the here and now... to trust his feelings...

This is also something Anakin can never really do.. he's always trying to control his feelings and his environment...and it is his downfall.

If Qui Gonn speaks from beyond the grave, and I hope he is in the next movie as Liam Neeson, he speaks to tell Yoda that the Jedi have been a bit wrong about what they are teaching eachother... because Yoda's take on the Force in Ep1-2 is markedly different from his outlook in Ep 5-6

Thoughts? Sorry for the long post.

now that's what i'm talkin about

Love hurts...

Disney's Robin Hood said it best...

Life is brief,
but when it's gone
Love goes on and on...

"if you're going to say anything about the "philosophy" of star wars then watch the damn movies first."

Completely uncalled for.

Great points in your post, Kyle, but this statement especially caught my eye. It sort of links up with a historical theme from another Lucas production, namely the Crusades in Indy 3.

"the memory of my love for you will stay in your heart long after im gone."


for the people stating that the force is on auto balance are also stating that the jedi have no influence over the force as do the sith to which i disagree highly.

Lucas's point is about symbiosis - the Force is "in balance" when everything works in harmony, to mutual benefit, specifically between people & the Force/midi-chlorians. The Force can be influenced, as long as its for mutual benefit. That's why the Jedi must also let the Force influence them.

The Force is "out of balance" when one side gains advantage to the detriment of the other side - parasitism instead of symbiosis - which of course refers to the Sith. Balance is restored when the Sith are destroyed. Lucas was explicit about that.

I've found that internal/external reflection is an obvious but reliable key to Lucas's storytelling. The whole saga is played out on two levels, Anakin's internal struggle and the external conflict of the GFFA. The Jedi are Anakin's good side, the Sith & the Dark Side are Anakin's bad side, and the galaxy itself represents Anakin. On a personal level we've got Anakin torn between his selfish desires (some of which are not entirely bad) and his selfless desires (some of which are not entirely good). Anakin's Jedi powers - a good thing - are slowly being turned toward selfish ends, because he's blinded by arrogance and idealism. Externally we've got the Jedi Order slowly being turned toward an evil goal (the Empire) because the Jedi are also blinded by arrogance and idealism. Like Anakin, they're so wrapped up in their own tangled web that they can't see how corrupted they've become, how they're facilitating the rise of evil.

The second half of ROTS is the swift descent into hopelessness. Internally Anakin embraces darkness (the lust for power) and realizes too late that he can't go back. He's destroyed himself and everything he loves. He buries away the remaining scraps of his good side and resigns himself to evil. Externally the galaxy also embraces darkness - Palpatine's increasingly-militaristic regime (the lust for power) - and is caught in the same trap. Like Anakin becoming Vader, the Republic becomes the Empire and the remains of its good side - the Jedi - likewise go into hiding.

In other words, if you want to understand why the Jedi act as they do, think of Anakin's own good side and how it gets corrupted by arrogance, ego, near-sightedness, good intentions, etc.

(And of course the whole thing plays itself in reverse in the OT.)

well put vanillazinger.

And vanillazinger's post seems to be the most perfect mating of the Love and Midichlorian theories that I could've imagined.

And I'm not just agreeing with it just because it's seemingly entirely consistent with the things I've said either.

Nicely put vanillazinger. Sometimes shorter IS better. I just wish that I would've read what you said before I started writing my reply to cod doc's response to my posting. If I had, I would've simply written "What vanillazinger said."

Now, good night, for REAL.

Till next time!

Balance is restored when the Sith are destroyed.

i don't really understand this..

That is George's definition of what is meant by balance in his universe.

Still up!

Here's my attempt at explaining what I think Lucas means when he says "Balance is restored when the Sith are destroyed."

If people take care of each other, that's balance, the way things are supposed to be. There's still death to contend with, so everything isn't perfectly rosey, but there's also no gross exploitation of the people's needs while they pursue their Life's path.

The Sith, on the other hand, represent the greediest drives of man. That's all they can do, is just scheme and fool people out of what is rightfully due to them.

As I've said before, the vast majority of people simply want to live their lives out in peace with one another, and are perfectly happy so long as their general needs are being met. They are the norm, it is those who seek power over others that are abnormal. They are the imbalance that disrupts people's lives and cause them undue misery, something that is caused by an UNNATURAL need and craving found in a tiny minority of individuals.

Those in power use all of their faculties to try and convince others that the way the elite live is "The Way" things ought to be for everyone, and those who believe in The Greatest of Lies only compound the problem, because they're then inundated with messages instructing them to crave things that they don't need, adding to their insecurity, creating distrust, division, and generating unnecessary and irrational fears ("I must have that big fishing boat. Oops, I own it but I don't have the time to take it out into the water like I should. Uh oh, my neighbor's now got an even bigger boat than me, which makes me look weaker and less sexy to my potential bride--DAMN him! Time to get a new boat now. The stress! Oh the stress of having too much stuff and always wanting more, whoa is me! What's this? I'm dead, and I can't take my last boat with me? But I nearly divorced my wife for it! Please oh please let me have it! You mean, it won't keep the worms from eating my body! That's it, the end? Crap!).

Getting rid of the Sith, or rather what drives them, will restore the galaxy to the natural order of things. Natural needs working themselves out naturally... BALANCE.

Now, I REALLY mean it this time. Good night all.

If you lied to us about going to bed, how can you expect us to trust anything you have posted?

You've turned MF into a carnival of lies. Of lies I tell you.

Dogg.

No, she doesn't.

Also Fatboy, Padme goes into Labour, Yoda talks to Qui-Gon, then back to Padme recieving the children and naming them..

no i just don't think "balance" in his context makes sense.

Aquarium with fish and working air pump = balanced.

Evil kid comes by, stops up the pump, fish die = unbalanced.

No, she doesn't.

Wow. Good questioning FR!

Is there another virgin birth here?

I already speculated this on the previous page, but noone noticed...

Hey, Tern, is this theory possible? Is Luke Qui-Gon reincarnated? Would add to the whole "parallells" Lucas likes: Ep. III Qui-Gon returns, Ep. VI Anakin returns.

Tern at TF.N:

Yes...the secret is love.

Yeah, so much for my treatise. :p

It's LOVE guys. The secret is Love. LOVE!

You were right, Tern, it's so simple as to be a bit unsatisfying. Maybe even trite. I guess Yoda did love the children and Obi-Wan wept for Qui-Gon. Still, becoming hermits to learn about love? I don't get it.

Well, at least that too is a return to the OT theme. We all figured Love With A Capital L was the key when ROTJ came out. I was kinda hoping that would be one of the things we'd look at differently after ROTS.