You still can't say that Chewbs because religion is a large element of that place. You are so anti organized religion but have you even tried religion at all? In my experience, when you find religion on your own and get comfortable with it it's much easier to tolerate the organizes bits.

The key word in that paragraph being "organized". I have such a distaste for religion because of organized religion. I find that with organized religion politics play too large a role (Or maybe that is the other way around). But that being said I can tolerate religion quite well it is the organized bit that puts me off... I'd rather not have to conform to some written set of rules to worship that which may not exist.

Ok, so don't. Why is that so hard? I think you're just being a little too close minded, and if you tried it you may like it more. I'm so not trying to be the pushy Christian, but I know what you mean, maybe of the things we do in Church I hate because I feel like I'm being forced to do something I don't like, but I jsut don't worry about those parts and enjoy the portions I do like.

I have no problems with religion in general, but some of the stupid bits I choose to ignore. Jesus came here to tell us to love each other and be peaceful That is what I follow. I don't like church so I don't go often. Only when my parents make a big deal of it and I'm in the mood to take a nap sunday afternoon.

See, to me, I don't see how that's even possible to believe that way. Maybe some people are capable of faith, and others are not. I don't know.

I know the Bible's been screwed with over the years and what's in the movie isn't an exact portrayal of what happened, but I just don't see where it's a Catholic guilt trip.

Wouldn't have mattered who made the movie, the directors vision would have certainly put a slant on what's being told. Blaming Mel for doing this is absurd. Overall, I would say it's a fairly accurate depiction of what's in the bible.

Sure, Mel could have made a movie on, say, the last week of Christ on Earth and glossed over the pain and suffering. He could have filmed a generic crucifixion scene, with little to no gore, but what's the point?
Instead he decided to film the last few agonising hours, and as an artist I guess you gotta respect that.



Mel also had access to other historical documents. Where these are kept, or why they aren't in the bible, I don't know.

Sounds like the Apocryphal Bible, which I have seen and read bits and pieces of. Basically, it has some extra books and chapters in places. I think you can get them at most major bookstores or Christian book stores, and I'm sure any college that has advanced Biblical studies.

From what I understand he had to get permission to use them, so I don't think they are something you can just acquire. Maybe they are locked up at the Vatican...

Oh really? I hadn't heard that, actually. I know that you can get Apocryphal Bibles in various places, but perhaps this was extra stuff even from that.

Also, I thought I'd just mention that I saw this film a week after its release, and thought it was great in the spiritually powerful sense. I think that anyone struggling with their faith or having doubts should watch it, and remember that even historians who do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, will say that he really did walk the earth, and that He really was crucified--at least according to someone at church I've talked to about it. It will be a strong reminded of what Jesus did for what He believed and what He was willing to do for everyone.

And I think no one can say "The Jews killed Jesus," because when you get down to it, we all killed Him. Every one of us did. He died for us, so everyone has to look to themselves for blame for his death.

He died for everyone. Therefore, your sins are just as much the cause of his death as anyone else's sins. You sin, and those sins were already forgiven by Him by his death. Everyone sins--He died to forgive sins--therefore every sin is the cause of his death.

He still went through the pain. He could have called angels down to save Him, but he didn't.



He knew, and so did his disciples.

I'm still not fucking sure what that means? Care to explain?


God Bless You.

There's some good points on both sides. I also mistrust religion, because it is run by people, and people are assholes. There may be an almighty God, and it may well be Jesus. However, I can't see how he's send me to hell for asking the following questions with the sinful brain he gave me:

Why would God do this? Why would he whom is omniscient and knew damn well Eve and Adam would eat the apple set hisdelf up in such a way that he'd have to kill himself/his son?

Hmmm..I just had my 5th child. Let me infect the 5th with Leukemia, so one of the other kids can offer up his bone marrow to show how much he loves me.

That's just sick. What kind of a God would do that, and why the fuck would he want to?

The whole guilt thing is a tool invented by other humans(in God's name) used for control.

Honestly, any God who would send me to hell for an eternity after he gave me a brain in which he doesn't make sense is an asshole, and not much different from a kid burning ants on an anthill with a magnifying glass. If there is a God, I think he'd be a whole lot less petty.

I don't want to go any deeper than I already have in this thread, and if you care to re-read my posts you'll see exactly where I stand. I don't want to pound my point of view any more than I already have and come off as a complete asshole (which I hope I haven't already).



Not at all. I just realise where religious debates can go if left unchecked. It's hard to leave your passions and beliefs at the door, but I think we have done pretty well so far, and I hope no one has been offended.

Same here. Good call SI...I've been in hundreds of these types of discussions, and not once did the devout person become a heathen, or a heathen get religion. It can only divide us, and that's one thing religion shouldn't do.

The South Park Episode tonight(Kyle sees the Passion) was really funny, and summed up a lot of the arguments here. If you didn't see it, you can usually get it at suprnova...

I apologize if I offended anybody.

Can you summarise the South Park episode - we probably won't see it down here for a while?

cheers!

Ok...well, it won't sound funny this way, but here goes...

Cartman is all over Kyle as usual about being a Jew while they are playing Star Trek, and tells him he's afraid to see the truth, that the Jews killed Jesus. Kyle goes to see the movie and is sickened.

Stan and Kenny also go see the movie, and come out mad that the movie sucked, and wasn't a movie at all but a "snuff film". They demand their money back, and are told they'll have to get it from the producer, Mel Gibson.

While this is going on, Cartman's anti-semitism is growing by his belief that everybody who enjoys the Passion is equally anti-semitic, and starts a Mel Gibson fan club. He also starts praying to his Bravehart poster.

Kyle has taken the movie to heart, and feels horrible about what happened to Jesus. He visits a priest and learns about atonement, and decides the Jews should apologize as a people to Christians.

Cartman starts dressing like Hitler, and leading an un-knowing group of South Parkers(who think they are just supporting the movie) on a goose stepping Parade chanting anti-Jewish slogans(the people just think it's Aramaic in tribute to the film).

Stan and Kenny get to Mel's house in Malibu and ask for their money back. Mel is portayed(with his real head) as a total whacko- He bounces around, demanding to be tortured, saying he's going to start a religion, and shooting guns at the boys. The boys steal back their money and flee.

The parading Southparkers(Led by Cartman/Hitler) march past the Synagouge where Kyle is suggesting to the Jewish congregation that they apologize. They are of course aghast, and pissed off that the movie paints them in such a poor light. They here the Goosestepping crowd and head outside.

The two groups are arguing, and things are about to get ugly, when Mel Gibson show up still pursuing the boys in a road warrior type truck, and everybody realizes that he's a whack job and they shouldn't take things seen in a movie so seriously. Then Mel drops his draws and blows a liquid shit-fart in Cartmans face. Extremely funny...


There were some serious points thrown in during the episode. At one point, they placed a cross on top of the cinema...in another, it was pointed out that the bible doesn't really focus on Jesus' death, and that the Passion was originally an entertainment piece used to incite hate for the Jews.

Actually that sounds like it could be quite funny.

Thanks.

Focusing on the negative again are we? Christianity, like anything else in the world, has good things, and bad things. The whole reason behind Christianity is the cleansing of us from sin. Without sin, there would be no reason for Christianity, or for Jesus Christ to have walked the earth.

Everyone has the ability to make choices. This free will is perhaps the greatest thing ever given to us. It is also the reason for sin. Sin is what separates us from heaven. The only way to get there is by being cleansed - having your sins forgiven.

God sending his own son to earth to die FOR us was the sacrafice made for all of our sins. It cleanses us and allows us to enter heaven, if we choose to believe.

I don't really understand everything else that goes on in churches. All the rituals and traditions associated with the denominations don't mean anything to me, and I choose not to follow them. I go to a non-denominational church that only teaches what's in the Bible, not all the strange religious practices.



I just saw it two days ago, and all I can say is that it really was a wake up call. I don't think you can fully appreciate the sacrafice that Jesus made unless you know exactly what happened to Him. This movie does an excellent job and is very accurate to the depictions in the gospels. I don't think a lot of people today understand who Jesus was or why He was here. This movie shows you what happened to Him and leaves you wondering why, which I think was Mel's intent. Would I rather watch a movie about Jesus fishing? Admittedly yes; but it wouldn't affect me nearly the same way.



So did YOU kill Jesus? If you want to think of it what way, I guess you did.

the validity of the the gospels is indeed a popular debate. but it's all a matter of what you choose to believe. i have no reason do discount them. then again, i don't read the bible from a skeptics point of view....

'Passion' stirs blame for Jesus' death: Twenty-six per cent blamed Jews, up from 19 per cent in a previous poll that asked the same question in 1997: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1080653.htm

Great work Mel!

only one of the gospels (John) was an i-witness account.

It's hard to believe that people are still this ignorant of the basic facts. The last 200 years of biblical scholarship has shown this not to be true. None of the authors are eyewitnesses. John is the very latest and least reliable, written somewhere in the range of 90 - 150 CE.

a book i read recently, called more than a carpenter...

Josh McDowell is an idiot. Only the deeply uneducated are affected by the likes of him. For just one comprehensive critique of his "evidence", go here:

The Jury Is In: The Ruling on McDowell's "Evidence": http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... ndex.shtml

The Passion story is a myth. It was created, possibly by Mark, by interpreting parts of the Old Testament and placed into history.

See "The Jesus Seminar", for example. This is a group of about 200 scholars who voted on the sayings of Jesus, concluding that 82% of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him. http://www.jesusseminar.com/index.html

Christ is a myth. Jesus may also be mythical.

interesting opposition.


where do you get this information? even your jesus seminar says that the gospel of john was written before 90 CE.

here is an intelligent response to the claims of the jesus seminar:
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/jesussem.html

the whole basis of the jesus seminar was to examine the validity of the gospels from a skeptics point of view. this meant that all references to miracles or prophesies were immediately discounted, thus assuming that the gospels were written well after the fact.

"...the Jesus Fellows, like all skeptics, prefer their own reason and biases over the possibility that the Gospels are accurate in what they say about miracles, prophecy, and the claims of Christ."

all this really comes down to is whether you choose to believe in the gospel or not.

again, it comes down to what you choose to believe. i believe it actually happened. not exactly the way it's depicted in the movie, but pretty identical. most everyone else in this thread thinks it is merely a myth, and that's fine too.

Yeah, but you could say that about any film. You don't have to see Episode III (especially considering the entire film has, most likely, been spoiled for you), or any film for that matter, regardless of whether or not you have any prior knowledge of a subject being presented to you in a film and through the marketing of said film; take the recent Dawn of the Dead remake (which I think you liked and recommend on a previous page in this thread). Anyone walking into that film who had already seen the Romero original clearly wasn't going to see a fresh, new story; they obviously wanted to see a fresh new take on a story they already knew (I know I did); which is probably the incentive for most people to go out and see Gibson's "Passion" (among other reasons, no doubt). The way a story is being told is, I think, just as important the story that's being told in the first place. I think that if you're going to watch a film, any film, you need to set aside what you know about it going into the experience and just take it for what it is.

Here's a link to a review that I wrote after watching the flick and that I posted over at the JC, along with some additional comments (the formating's a little screwy, sorry 'bout that):

http://users.adelphia.net/~joe1138/passion.html

By the way, enjoyed your article Fatboy.